I just spotted these screens on another forum:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/rashonmon/sony%20gamers%20day/lemmingsII5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/rashonmon/sony%20gamers%20day/lemmingsII4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/rashonmon/sony%20gamers%20day/lemmingsII3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/rashonmon/sony%20gamers%20day/lemmingsII2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/rashonmon/sony%20gamers%20day/lemmingsII1.jpg

These are supposedly screens from a new "Lemmings 2" for PlayStation 3, which is going to be offered as a downloadable game.

Is Team 17 responsible for this game? I sure hope so, as they did a fine job with Lemmings on the PSP. The art style seems to be similar to Lemmings on PSP, also.

Hey Agent X,

No matter...just a great find :). Thanks for the images.

The real "Lemmings 2" was "The Tribes". It had over 60 moves fro the lemmings to use! I wish they'd bring that out with new graphics. It seems what they're bringing out next is "Oh no! More Lemmings" judging by the terrains.

Yes, that's in no way Lemmings 2, and if they release it and call it Lemmings 2 there'll be a lot of confused and angry nerds out there.

To be frank, there's something wrong with any world where Lemmings is a PlayStation exclusive.

Oh for the days of the Amiga and DOS again...


I think that Lemmings 2: The Tribes was possibly the best lemmings game to be released. If they'd implemented 2-player on that one any other games would probably be ignored. 2-player on Tribes would kill.

I don't know if it's just me but it looks like you have to pick up your tools in the bottom screenshot, as the icons seem to be inside little bubbles on the level. If that's the case, then surely it's more like Lemmings 3, as you had to pick up tools in that one too.

Yeah, but the traps they are using resemble those that are in Oh No! More Lemmings! you see.

Going ever so slightly off topic but..... if anybody wanted to play the original lemmings games on DOS including lemmings 2 and 3, it's still possible using the mighty power of DosBox, the neat program that runs almost all Dos games almost perfectly. I'm still playing Lemmings, Ohno More Lemmings, Lemmings 2 and Lemmings 3 and haven't completed any of them yet.

OK back on topic.

That doesn't look like a remake of Oh No more Lemmings to me. I know the traps seem similar but personally I don't think the terrain does. Do we know if this is Team 17 making this or not, and if it is, why would the pictures have been seen elsewhere first? Do you think that whoever is making it is going for an entirely new approach, assuming that the tools do have to be picked up?

It does look like Team17's work, but then, it could easily be someone else tying in to Team17's version. I don't really see why Sony would get someone else to do it, presuming they were happy with the PSP version, but then I don't see why Sony do anything.

Do you think you could give us a link to this forum you speak of?

Yes, that's in no way Lemmings 2, and if they release it and call it Lemmings 2 there'll be a lot of confused and angry nerds out there.

To be frank, there's something wrong with any world where Lemmings is a PlayStation exclusive.

Lemmings was a Psygnosis game.

In 1998 or so, Sony bought Psygnosis. They are now known as SCE Studio Liverpool but are still allowed to release games under the name of Psygnosis.

Team17 developed the PSP Lemmings game which is owned by Sony.

Amirite?

^ consistent with what i have heard, at least.

the screenies look nice. i still have not acquired a copy of psp lemings, which is probably an oversight on my part, but it looks like the ps3 version will be a must-have for me, espetially if there is mouse support.

Do you think you could give us a link to this forum you speak of?http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=33441
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4592363&postcount=11

Lemmings was a Psygnosis game.

In 1998 or so, Sony bought Psygnosis. They are now known as SCE Studio Liverpool but are still allowed to release games under the name of Psygnosis.

Team17 developed the PSP Lemmings game which is owned by Sony.

Amirite?

Well, yes, you're right. I'm not contesting any of that.

I just think it highly inconguous for Lemmings to be on the PlayStation, since the PlayStation has always been a very high-spec machine for people who want the very latest cutting edge graphics and fancy-pants 3D gaming experience. Lemmings, an old, 2D game that hasn't changed much in two decades, doesn't even need a triple-digit clock speed and requires more lateral thinking than aiming, clearly belongs on home computers, mobile phones, and Nintendo consoles.

Seems to me like they'd sell a lot more Lemmings on the DS than the PS3. (Though obviously they're looking at it from a "how can we sell most PS3s" angle.)

Seems to me like they'd sell a lot more Lemmings on the DS than the PS3. (Though obviously they're looking at it from a "how can we sell most PS3s" angle.)

Well, duh. Sony are hardly going to give Nintendo any ammunition/potential for sales, are they? They are like VG nemeses, for crying out loud!

Anyway, the PlayStation hasn't always been about graphics for me. It's been about variety and stuff. I mean, Disgaea looked like a PlayStation game at best but was a PlayStation 2 release, plus Nintendo didn't have the almighty Tony Hawk franchise wich to this day I consider it one of the best franchises to date - it had the freedom and skill balance just right; the more skilled you were, the more freedom you had. That's something which is reflected in the real sport. Anyway, I digress; the PlayStation/2 was less about graphics than the Xbox and less about gameplay than the GameCube but it had the advantage of 2 generations of games, DVD playback and superior controllers. I think seeing them take a page from both Microsoft's and Nintendo's books would be a blessing. I say Lemming on the PS3 would remind and reassure people that this 'next' generation of games and consoles isn't all about normal mapping and volumetric barrel-flare.

i agree that the last decade's trend of the gameplay/graphics balance to shift unproportionally twoards graphics is troubling, but i do not think that you should look at the increase in computational capabilities of the systems as the culprit. statement that a gameplay-oriented game belongs on a slower system is unwaranted. there are many computationally and memory limited problems applicable twoards gaming that have nothing to do with graphics. consider artificial inteligence. any ai problem can be represented in a form of a search in some large solution space, and solution spaces tend to grow exponentially with complexity of the problem. i can guarantee that playing a game of go against ai would be by far more interesting on ps3 than on nintendo ds, for instance, because it would be absolutly impossible to implement a descent ai on the later, and even the former would not be capable to compete against a skilled player.

i agree that the last decade's trend of the gameplay/graphics balance to shift unproportionally twoards graphics is troubling, but i do not think that you should look at the increase in computational capabilities of the systems as the culprit. statement that a gameplay-oriented game belongs on a slower system is unwaranted. there are many computationally and memory limited problems applicable twoards gaming that have nothing to do with graphics. consider artificial inteligence. any ai problem can be represented in a form of a search in some large solution space, and solution spaces tend to grow exponentially with complexity of the problem. i can guarantee that playing a game of go against ai would be by far more interesting on ps3 than on nintendo ds, for instance, because it would be absolutly impossible to implement a descent ai on the later, and even the former would not be capable to compete against a skilled player.
Hehe! :D
I guess you wouldn't buy these:
http://www.fritzmobile.com
http://www.shredderchess.com/chess-program/shredder-mobile.html
;)

it all depends on the game. a portable key-chain checkers game with proper ai could beat, or at least tie, to any player. there is a complete algorithmic solution to the game. portable chess systems can beat most advanced players. the most powerful computer systems are currently slightly better than best chess players. an advanced player in go can beat any existing ai.

it becomes even worse in games with more complex rule sets. it is absolutly trivial to write aiming code for worms, for instance. writing an ai that is fun to play against, on the other hand, is extremely complex. generally, you want an ai that beats you by use of tactics, rather than with ridiculously good aim. in fact, you'd want to mess up its aim slightly and make ai account for the fact that it's easier to hit an enemy from short range. this is where an incredible number of cpu cycles can be sunk, regardles of graphics. i ran worms2 on a 100mhz machine, yet the ai would be able to benefit from the processing power of the next-gen consoles.

I just think it highly inconguous for Lemmings to be on the PlayStation, since the PlayStation has always been a very high-spec machine for people who want the very latest cutting edge graphics and fancy-pants 3D gaming experience.

Then why was the PSone less powerful than the N64 (I think, it was definitely 32-bit instead of 64), and the PS2 less powerful than the Gamecube or Xbox, even though those came out a little bit after it.

Nintendo has only recently moved away from the 'Powerful consoles with action-based games market,' too, although the DS and Wii controllers would obviously work quite well with Lemmings (although sometimes I hear that precision can be hard with a Wii controller), but it would be a major oversight for Sony to ignore mouse control on Lemmings, so that should work fine anyway.

Run-on sentence, anyone? :)

The N64 was definately 32-bit. The name was based on the false assumption that having 2 32-bit cards made it 64-bit.

Anyway I've never played a Lemmings game without using a mouse. I fail to see how it would be easy to play without liberal use of the pause control. Then again, if it worked on PSP then it should be fine with any sort of analogue stick.

I also don't think that the Playstation has ever been about playing the latest in high-spec cutting edge graphics. I would personally say that was down to the Xbox (hence why Doom 3 and Half-life 2 were only on Xbox). I thought that the Playstation was always the console aimed around RPGs and strange, interesting Japanese games like Ape Escape. It didn't really have that many high-action games on it compared to the Xbox. So I think that the Playstation is the best of the consoles for Lemmings to appear on (although if it were possible to have it appear on all of them then that would be great....)

Just an afterthought, does anybody know anyone who ever bought a keyboard and mouse for the Playstation? Because I've never known anyone to, despite them being available....

Then why was the PSone less powerful than the N64 (I think, it was definitely 32-bit instead of 64), and the PS2 less powerful than the Gamecube or Xbox, even though those came out a little bit after it.
i would not consider ngc to be more powerful than ps2. yes, it had higher cpu clock speed, but that is about it. emotion engine's architecture more than makes up for the difference in the clock speed, espetially in floating point computations, and all other specs are in ps2's favor.

i would not consider ngc to be more powerful than ps2. yes, it had higher cpu clock speed, but that is about it. emotion engine's architecture more than makes up for the difference in the clock speed, espetially in floating point computations, and all other specs are in ps2's favor.

You win. All I know is that GC has prettier graphics :)

Just an afterthought, does anybody know anyone who ever bought a keyboard and mouse for the Playstation? Because I've never known anyone to, despite them being available....Nope. Either there's not a lot of in-game support, or they just don't work as nicely as in a PC, like the DC mouse/keyboard.

i'm sure a lot more people will get one for ps3. unlike ps2, any usb mouse/keyboard will do for ps3, it will be usable with built-in browser and chat systems, linux will require one, and i'm sure that because all of the above, games will have much better support for keyboard/mouse interface. perhaps, some even requiring it.

Well, yes, you're right. I'm not contesting any of that.

I just think it highly inconguous for Lemmings to be on the PlayStation, since the PlayStation has always been a very high-spec machine for people who want the very latest cutting edge graphics and fancy-pants 3D gaming experience. Lemmings, an old, 2D game that hasn't changed much in two decades, doesn't even need a triple-digit clock speed and requires more lateral thinking than aiming, clearly belongs on home computers, mobile phones, and Nintendo consoles.

Seems to me like they'd sell a lot more Lemmings on the DS than the PS3. (Though obviously they're looking at it from a "how can we sell most PS3s" angle.)

a) n64 has better graphics then the playstation and its load times cant be beaten by it eaiter...

b) ps2 sucks graphicaly to gamecube and xbox... unless your playing a cell shaded game... then it CAN be on par with the others...

i'm sure a lot more people will get one for ps3. unlike ps2, any usb mouse/keyboard will do for ps3, it will be usable with built-in browser and chat systems, linux will require one, and i'm sure that because all of the above, games will have much better support for keyboard/mouse interface. perhaps, some even requiring it.

If you watch Gameinformer.com's Ted Price videos demoing Resistance: Fall of Man's online system, you can see that it uses text chat at least in the lobby as well as voice chat. Ted uses the controller and predictive text to enter a message, but keyboard will undoubtedly work as well. Also, in Ted's IGN blog, he said that Resistance didn't include keyboard/mouse control because it would require totally rebalancing the game, not because it's an infeasible option.

Seeing as how Resistance is simply a launch title, I'm sure we'll see keyboard support across the board later on.

So why does the PlayStation have this "revolutionary" magic Cell processor that can supposedly do anything and everything twice and still have cycles left over to fold proteins, if not to play high-spec games?

And more to the point, if its graphics and gameplay are worse than Nintendo's consoles, and its more expensive and comes from a less likeable company, why does anyone buy them? There must be some reason to own one.

Exclusive games?

Exclusive games?
Yes, but if the exclusive games are worse than the ones on other platforms...

So why does the PlayStation have this "revolutionary" magic Cell processor that can supposedly do anything and everything twice and still have cycles left over to fold proteins, if not to play high-spec games?

And more to the point, if its graphics and gameplay are worse than Nintendo's consoles, and its more expensive and comes from a less likeable company, why does anyone buy them? There must be some reason to own one.

Microsoft have clearly demonstrated with Live Arcade that people who buy next gen consoles don't just want to play massive, AAA games on them. There is a definite market for smaller games on the new consoles. That's why they are all pushing their online capabilities.

Yes, it's us.

It's all new content, all of it. Not based on any previous Lemmings title. Can't say anything more right now, it needs to come from Sony themselves.

BTW It's really nice :-)

They spoke? The Teamsters have spoken about a secret* project? Impossible!

Just please make sure you don't call it Lemmings 2, as I'm an old-skool Lemmings fanboy and will get very upset.

Not based on any previous Lemmings title eh? Does that mean it will have a level editor? None of the previous official games had one. -EDIT- Ignore this comment. I had a serious memory lapse. Thanks for correcting me Plasma.

Either that or they'll have bazookas, grenades, and concrete donkeys.....

*Clearly it's not secret because we already know about it. But you know what I mean...

They spoke? The Teamsters have spoken about a secret* project? Impossible!
Hmm...
Seems their beer tap broke again. :D

Not based on any previous Lemmings title eh? Does that mean it will have a level editor? None of the previous official games had one.
WRONG!
Both of Team17's lemmings games so far had level editors.

DOH! Of course they do. I'm thinking of Psygnosis.

*Slaps himself*

Microsoft have clearly demonstrated with Live Arcade that people who buy next gen consoles don't just want to play massive, AAA games on them. There is a definite market for smaller games on the new consoles. That's why they are all pushing their online capabilities.
Well, yes, but Microsoft don't make the PS3. And nor are they charging anyone $500 for their console.

I mean, I'm sure there is a market for it on the PS3, but I can't imagine it's anything like as large as it would be on the other consoles, particularly the Wii, which is designed to be family friendly and easily picked up. And if they're really aiming Lemmings at people who already own PS3s, there's no reason not to make versions on other platforms. Clearly, then, it's supposed to be an incentive to buy the console, but surely nobody in the world will pay an extra $200-$300 to play a game that ran fine, albeit in a more primitive guise, in the 1980s? Lemmings being a PS3 exclusive just feels wrong to me -- that's all I meant and I feel like I've been backed into a corner now and I've ended up saying far more than the strength of my feelings ever really warranted.

This is definately cool news, I hope this bodes well for Worms coming to PS3 as well. I think it would be the perfect online party game for the Playstation Store. Hopefully Team17 is working on something for us fans. :)

Yes, but if the exclusive games are worse than the ones on other platforms...
Errrr, Katamari Damacy? Ico? Shadow of the Colossus? God of War? Final Fantasy? Okami?

I'm not exactly a Sony fanboy, but there's no denying that the PS2 has a very strong line-up of exclusive games.


SiN

dam fotobuket
use www.imageshack.us

Errrr, Katamari Damacy? Ico? Shadow of the Colossus? God of War? Final Fantasy? Okami?
There are three good games in that list, and Final Fantasy ain't one of 'em.

Well I say Disgaea owns them all. Unfortunately, that's a PS2 exclusive, just like most other japanese RPG's such as Star Ocean. So as long as they are exclusively on PS2, I won't be buying any other console.

Which is a shame because PS2's normally require buying a memory card, multi-tap adaptor and a replacement when it stops reading discs. Talk about expense...

Hm... Nice screens.
If this is true, then it will definately have a different name. The names on that 'site weren't really that accurate, calling the new Sonic game simply "Sonic" instead of "Sonic The Hedgehog", so yeah, the name is probably not official. At all.

And Lemmings belongs on Wii. It's the only console that can do Lemmings well, apart from the computer, obviously.

I think you'll find that the PSP did Lemmings pretty well really (there's a lot of total nonsense written about control problems) - and it seems to work really nicely on PS3 too! (As it also does on PS2, for the record). People in reviews get hung up on the fact that you can pause the game and select a new skill - you've been able to do that since the original. Sure, the game is suited to mouse control, but that doesn't mean it can't play well with a joypad that has the right level of speed, inertia and auto-tagging - hopefully our versions demonstrate this.

It can't appear on non sony formats since Sony owns Lemmings.

The Wii controller isn't perfect for controlling Lemmings btw although it's very good for gesture related interfaces/mechanics. But any way up, it won't appear on Wii for the afore-mentioned fly in the ointment.

Well, not unless Sony decide that there's little profit to be had in the franchise and sells the lisence.
...
Damnit Team17, why do you have to be so good at your jobs?

DOH! Of course they do. I'm thinking of Psygnosis.

*Slaps himself*

Didn't Psygnosis have Lemedit? I got it to work on my old Win98 laptop a few months ago. It's pretty sweet, and you get the levels from Oh no! More lemmings! too.

Nope. Psygnosis didn't have LemEdit. It was made by someone else. Psygnosis didn't want people making their own levels for Lemmings. Once, a guy called Peter Spada made a lemmings game called Copycat Lemmings which was basically just a level editor. Psygnosis promptly threatened to sue him, and it was removed pretty quickly.

Why psygnosis never wanted people to make their own levels I'll never know. It would have stopped people from making illegal clones of the game.

There are three good games in that list, and Final Fantasy ain't one of 'em.
In your opinion. In my opinion FF over-rated and kinda crap, but that's beside the point. The point is that there are tonnes of PS2 exclusives (or time-exclusives) that are either: (i) critically acclaimed (ii) best-sellers (iii) or both. Try as you might, you really can't deny that the PS2 out-does the Cube and XBox in terms of exclusives.


Yeah Spadge, I never got around to saying it, but Lemmings performs very well on the PSP. I really enjoyed the game, and was pleasantly surprised to see how "right" you guys got the control scheme.

Oh, and this just occured to me. The PS3 supports USB mice, doesn't it? Why not add that functionality into Lemmings?


SiN

A USB mouse will not be a mass-market interface for the PS3, so there was no consideration by Sony to support it.

I see no reason for Sony not to support USB mouse. Arn't all mice made with USB extensions rather than PS2 (confusingly the port has the same name as the concole)? For instance, doesn't Half-Life for PS2 support USB keyboard and mouse? That should cross over to the PS3. And a mouse would be greatly handy for when using the PS3 webbrowser..

I see no reason for Sony not to support USB mouse. Arn't all mice made with USB extensions rather than PS2 (confusingly the port has the same name as the concole)? For instance, doesn't Half-Life for PS2 support USB keyboard and mouse? That should cross over to the PS3. And a mouse would be greatly handy for when using the PS3 webbrowser..

I don't think they're saying that a mouse won't work with anything on the PS3, so much as it won't work on Lemmings on the PS3. I expect if there was a PC version alongside it the mouse would work on the PS3 version just because it wouldn't mean anything like as much extra work to support it, but if PS3 is the only version it could well be a lot of work, particularly for what would be a very small number of users who would take advantage -- even if you have a USB mouse, think where your PS3 would be. If it's in your living room (as you'd expect if it's supposedly a fully-fledged home entertainment centre) then a mouse wouldn't be the most practical control method.

It's a shame, though, because mice are exactly what Lemmings should be controlled by. (Although, wouldn't a light-gun version be fun?)

(Although, wouldn't a light-gun version be fun?)
Hahaha! :D
Sponsored by the U.S. Army:
"Join the U.S Army Sniper School now and be able to play this game!"

Lemmings was a Psygnosis game.

In 1998 or so, Sony bought Psygnosis. They are now known as SCE Studio Liverpool but are still allowed to release games under the name of Psygnosis.

Team17 developed the PSP Lemmings game which is owned by Sony.

Amirite?Well, Lemmings was DMA Design originally.

A USB mouse will not be a mass-market interface for the PS3, so there was no consideration by Sony to support it.
so why not just support it anyways? i'm not sure how you implemented a menu for selecting actions, but if it is used with the cursor, just like in the old dos version of lemmings, implementation of mouse would literally take 3 lines of code.

implementation of mouse would literally take 3 lines of code.
On the PS3? No. Hohoho.

unless for some very odd reason sony decided not to include any mouse support in the sdk, which i highly doubt, because there is no reason for them to create separate sdks for teams that 'do not need it', 3 lines should suffice. otherwise, if you have to beat the mouse coordinates out of the os, you'd write your own functions for that, which would take a page of code, at most. it's trivial either way, since os takes care of the usb protocol and actual communication with the mouse.

unless for some very odd reason sony decided not to include any mouse support in the sdk, which i highly doubt...
Do you not know anything about Sony?

so why not just support it anyways? i'm not sure how you implemented a menu for selecting actions, but if it is used with the cursor, just like in the old dos version of lemmings, implementation of mouse would literally take 3 lines of code.

That's a ridiculous statement - and people who don't know any better believe that nonsense.

Do you know that the entire interface to the game has to be designed an implemented based on the common interface? This is generally a dual-shock (or similar) although there's no shock to a PS3 pad!

Mice are NOT common console interface devices. If you are insistant on using mice, then stick to the PC, it will never (imho) be a common gaming device on console. This is nothing to do with Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo, it's a functionality poser for the mass market - mice are not mass-market gaming devices.

The whole interface for a game has to be developed and designed, there's no standard mouse O/S function on a PS2/3 or 360, the controller is what it's all about - thats unlikely to change.

Lemmings on PSP, PS2 and now PS3 has be totally designed around the controller and you know what, it actually works well.

no, i get that. i am not saying that you should design the whole interface around the mouse, or even keep a mouse in mind while designing the interface. but the game is still primarily controlled with a pointer, right? i am not talking about menus or any special options. just the process of selecting lemmings and abilities on the screen. if you simply read the change in mouse position, use that to move the pointer around, and have a click on the mouse acting the same as one of the buttons on the pad, most of the people who would prefer to use a mouse for lemmings would already be happy. this does not need to be standard. this does not even need to be official. 3-lines of code with no extra tech support, and you make a better game. i fail to see even a glimpse of a down side to this.

as for the lack of a mouse function, i am willing to bet that either changes in mouse position are sent to user program as messages from operating system or there is a function in os library that allows you to access the mouse pointer coordinates. that function might not be declared in headers or it might not be specific to mouse, but there should be a way to access the mouse. absolutely worst case scenario is that there are only functions to send/receive data from usb devices, and no explicit support for mouse in the os. even then writing code to communicate with the mouse should be sufficiently straight forward.

It's not as simple as you describe. Reading the mouse isn't a technical issue, but the design/interface is totally designed for pad/buttons and it's not a case of simply replacing the x/y movement and picking up clicks from 1, 2 or 3 buttons.

well, what actually wouldn't work if you simply change pointer coordinates with a mouse? i suppose, the action menu could have been changed to work with shoulder buttons or d-pad, but then the mouse wheel can be used to scroll through it. unless the game mechanics have changed dramatically, i can't think of anything else.

well, what actually wouldn't work if you simply change pointer coordinates with a mouse? i suppose, the action menu could have been changed to work with shoulder buttons or d-pad, but then the mouse wheel can be used to scroll through it. unless the game mechanics have changed dramatically, i can't think of anything else.
Tell me: can you think of ANY playstation2 game that uses only the D-pad/one analogue, and two buttons?

Quaker, let it go. Seriously. It's... it's just not going to happen.

Tell me: can you think of ANY playstation2 game that uses only the D-pad/one analogue, and two buttons?
no, but i can think of games that would have been just fine that way, and lemmings is such a game. a better question is, can you think of anything you can add to the lemmings that would make it impossible to play it with a mouse once that something is added to the game? perhaps t17 did think of something like that, in which case i withdraw my argument completely, but i am drawing a blank. at least, i can think of nothing that would keep enough of the game intact for it to still be lemmings.
Quaker, let it go. Seriously. It's... it's just not going to happen.
as far as i can tell, except for the fan art section, there are 3 types of posts that are being made on this forum. posts about things that aren't going to happen, posts explaining why these things aren't going to happen, and posts asking spadge what t17 has planned for the future.

as far as i can tell, except for the fan art section, there are 3 types of posts that are being made on this forum. posts about things that aren't going to happen, posts explaining why these things aren't going to happen, and posts asking spadge what t17 has planned for the future.
Category #4 are posts with running gags about beer.

Category #4 are posts with running gags about beer.

Your posts. Don't drag the rest of us down with you.:p

well, what actually wouldn't work if you simply change pointer coordinates with a mouse? i suppose, the action menu could have been changed to work with shoulder buttons or d-pad, but then the mouse wheel can be used to scroll through it. unless the game mechanics have changed dramatically, i can't think of anything else.

Ah, so hang on. You've not played any of Team17's Lemmings games, have you?

Nor have I, mind, but I'm not the one explaining how easily they could be modified. You're thinking about it backwards, though. Nothing has been changed -- there was no pre-existing PlayStation version to change. You start again from the ground up. It might snap the cursor to nearby lemmings, and scroll through actions with shoulder buttons, and have common skills pre-set on some action buttons, and scroll with one analogue stick and move the cursor with the other, for all we know.

That would be quite a lot of work to add in a mouse control.

no, i have not played ps2 or psp lemmings, so yes, i might not be the best person to judge how easy it would be, but nobody else have suggested anything that can't be done with a mouse. i'm sure somebody have played these games and seen my suggestions. if there was something new, preventing mouse control, i'm sure somebody would already mention these new additions. so this just leaves things that t17 might have added to the ps3 version that nobody but them is aware of.

what you are suggesting still boils down to pointing at lemmings and cycling through actions. you only need one axis to cycle through actions and two to point at lemmings, which are given by any mouse with a wheel. and even if there is a snap-to-lemming functionality, whether automatic or player activated, it would work just as well with a mouse. if it is user activated, then with mouse control you do not even need to worry about it, so there is no need to use up a mouse button for it. if it is automatic, it will happen whether the pointer is controlled by the pad or the mouse, so again, there is no extra work.

so again, there is no extra work.
There is always extra work. First rule of programming, that.

May I just point out that, as someone who has played both the PSP and PS2 versions of the game, that the controls are spot-on. More so for the PS2 version (and, by extension, the impending PS3 version) as there are, of course, two analogue sticks - rather than the D-pad, which is pretty rubbish on the PSP. I find that using the analogue stick to move the cursor, coupled with the square button which keeps the cursor locked over a lemming while it's being held, to be more an adequate.

Thankyouandgoodnight.

There is always extra work. First rule of programming, that.
that's the first rule of bad programming. code with multiple levels of abstraction, if well designed, is very flexible, and requires very little to no work to modify or port it. yes, in reality, good code is almost non-existent, but programmers have only themselves to blame for that. on a closer-to-topic example, t17 could have had multiple points in file where the state of the game pad is polled and various actions are performed. modifying such code to handle mouse input would be a lot of work. they could also have designed from the start a separate object that handles game pad input, and that object is responsible for controlling the flow of the program where user input is necessary. in the later case, there is only one place where code needs to be modified to handle input from mouse, network, or any other i/o entity. such object oriented design does come at a cost of cpu cycles, which makes it unacceptable for some of the most inner loops of code, but there are very few such inner loops. most commonly, these are only inner rendering and collision check loops. such code tends to be very hardware-specific and does not benefit from object oriented design anyhow.

May I just point out that, as someone who has played both the PSP and PS2 versions of the game, that the controls are spot-on. More so for the PS2 version (and, by extension, the impending PS3 version) as there are, of course, two analogue sticks - rather than the D-pad, which is pretty rubbish on the PSP. I find that using the analogue stick to move the cursor, coupled with the square button which keeps the cursor locked over a lemming while it's being held, to be more an adequate.

Thankyouandgoodnight.
but would it be any worse with a mouse?

that's the first rule of bad programming. code with multiple levels of abstraction, if well designed, is very flexible, and requires very little to no work to modify or port it.
1: There would have been no need for such code when a boxed code works fine.
2: Making a code with 'multiple layers of abstraction' is a lot of extra work itself.
3: It's impossible to get 'totally elastic' code; it will ALWAYS require extra work.

but programmers have only themselves to blame for that.
Wrong! There is often no need for a great code if the game has been planned out properly.

but would it be any worse with a mouse?
A mouse is the equivilent of ONE analogue stick. The game uses two.

abstract code always saves work, because you always end up adding something. no matter how well you plan the code, there are always unexpected changes.
There is often no need for a great code if the game has been planned out properly.
most ridiculous statement. even if you could predict everything you need the code to handle in advance, which can only be done for simple programs, clean code saves debugging time. modular code, a necessary condition for abstract code, is easier to test and debug. or are you saying that you can write an entire game engine without making a single error in process?

a problem of absolutely elastic code is equivalent to a problem of writing ai equivalent in intelligence to a good programmer. that is, of course, technologically impossible at this time, but realistically, you do not expect a need to convert a game engine into a monte carlo simulation of polymer chains. if you are writing a game engine, you can assume that you will need it to be a game engine. this gives you enough leg room to make the engine flexible without overloading the cpu. all you need to keep in mind is that requirements on ai, input mode, resources, and even the hardware, can change at any time. by allowing, for example, ai control over "characters" to be swaped for network control, you can transform rts into mmo rpg with a small change in perhaps as little as one line of code. is that elastic enough for you?

a mouse is not equivalent to an analogue stick, or i wouldn't even start the discussion. a mouse allows higher degree of control by allowing direct manipulation of the cursor position rather than control over the rate of change of said position. but that's beside the point. what do you use the second analogue stick for in lemmings? i suppose, you could implement scroll with a second analogue stick, but that can be done just as easily with using the same two axis of the mouse while holding a button. so far, the maximum number of things that need to be done with the mouse are:
1) movement of cursor.
2) "clicking" on lemmings.
3) lock on lemmings.
4) scrolling map.
5) scrolling through action menu.

by my count that's still mouse movement, a wheel, and 3 buttons, which is just about any usb mouse.

quakerworm, perhaps you missed what Spadge said here:

It's not as simple as you describe. Reading the mouse isn't a technical issue, but the design/interface is totally designed for pad/buttons and it's not a case of simply replacing the x/y movement and picking up clicks from 1, 2 or 3 buttons.

Again, it's not a *technical* issue. So we could keep talking about code abstraction, but that's really beside the point. (However "abstract code always saves work" isn't always true ... what about the case of over-engineering/abstracting code?)

You're thinking like a programmer. Start thinking like a designer. It's not as simple as switching two variables around. Here, off the top of my head, are some basic issues that reach far beyond your "only two variables" argument:

* How would you enabling mouse control? Would this be on the option screen? If so, you'll need to add that to the option screen, save that option, and check that option on loading. If it's automatic, when do you enable it? What if someone plugged in their mouse but didn't want to use it?

* Losing the mouse. What happens when someone unplugs the mouse? The game will either have to warn you about it, or fall back onto the gamepad, or do both.

* Major UI changes. With mouse control, people will expect different things. I for one am very guilty of trying to mouse-over the action buttons and "clicking" on them in the PSP version. :) This is a must for mouse-mode, but isn't in gamepad-mode. Scrolling by moving to the edge of the screen is another must. This is already implemented, but the area to scroll would have to be larger.

* What about the "menu" button? I.e: what replaces START? Another button to add to the UI.

* And with all these UI changes, think about what happens when you start playing with the mouse and then disconnect it. What now? Revert back to "gamepad ui"? Allow the user to play in "mouse ui" with the gamepad? Stop the game unitl the mouse is reconnected? What about the other way around? When you start off in gamepad mode, what happens when you hook up a mouse?

So on, so forth.

As you can see, it's a bit more complex than you think. Granted, none of these are taxing programming jobs, but they are time consuming, and more importantly, consume alot of QA time.

I still think it would be a very cool feature to add, and one that would be used a good deal. Mice, and spare mice are so common in houses, I can see Lemmings PS3 becoming a Bring-Your-Own-Mouse affair. However, I do understand why T17 decided not to add it.


SiN

..or Sony failed to request support. Had they asked/requested/insisted it would have been done. It wasn't/isn't.

So you're Sony's string puppet for this game. ;)

abstract code always saves work, because you always end up adding something. no matter how well you plan the code, there are always unexpected changes.
First rule of bad game design. :p

So you're Sony's string puppet for this game. ;)

Excuse me? We were developing the game on behalf of Sony, who were our client. Generally speaking, people who pay for services tend to get what they request. This is generally the case in life. It's also Sony's game/IP.

I'd guess that implementing mouse support without telling Sony could be worse, because if it is overlooked in testing there could be many complaints afterwards if something goes wrong.

@SiN: i am not talking about officially-supported-says-so-right-on-the-box mouse support. i am talking about simply having the mouse duplicate action of the pad. how would the game know to use mouse? it wouldn't. simply if there is input from the mouse, it affects the position of cursor. if not, then the pad is the only way to control. there is no call for any changes to the menu system, the gui, or anything like that.

@spadge: did the sony specifically request no mouse support, or did they simply not request it to be present? it makes sense for sony not to request it, because it is a lot of overhead for them in testing before game hits the shelves. if the feature is simply there, undocumented and unofficial, it creates no overhead, since the game works according to specs without mouse input. if it creates no overhead in testing and takes no effort to add, why not add it?

...and takes no effort to add, why not add it?
Because it wouldn't take no effort to add; and you keep ignoring that.
Look, please explain to me one single example of where it would take no effort at all to make something supported in a program over not making something supported in the program.

Because it wouldn't take no effort to add; and you keep ignoring that.
Look, please explain to me one single example of where it would take no effort at all to make something supported in a program over not making something supported in the program.
oi. this is one simple example. you have code that moves cursor based on input from the pad. now add a few lines to make it so that movement of the mouse also moves the cursor. you get mouse control for nada. you already have all the code that handles what happens when the cursor is positioned over one object or another. that doesn't need to change. the actual communication with the mouse should also be handled by the os to begin with.

edit: in fact, it would take me less time to add all the necessary code than it did for me to write up all of my arguments in the thread. it probably took spadge more time to write replies, than it would for one of their coders to do this. this is not a question of the code. it's only the question of whether it should be put in or not. i do not see a reason why sony would complain if it is just there, unless they specifically asked not to include it, in which case, t17 should just put in mouse control. of course, if sony specifically asks for it not to be there, then t17's hands are tied, and i should be writing angry letters to sony.

oi. this is one simple example. you have code that moves cursor based on input from the pad. now add a few lines to make it so that movement of the mouse also moves the cursor. you get mouse control for nada. you already have all the code that handles what happens when the cursor is positioned over one object or another. that doesn't need to change. the actual communication with the mouse should also be handled by the os to begin with.
Well, no:
1: You'd also have to add in what it took to make the code compatible; there wasn't any actual need for a compatible code until this came up.

2: It is not 'a few lines'. For example, they'd also have to add in the option of being able to set whether the player wants gamepad or mouse, they'd have to add in a check to make sure that there is a mouse attached, they'd need to rewrite the controls for more than 'replace button' tricks (an analogue stick is not going to be changed to the mouse wheel that easily), the menu controls would have to be rewritten,
...and that's all I can think of for now.
Just having the mouse working at the same time as the controller just won't cut it for a professional game, you can't expect people to keep switching from mouse to controller (this goes for what SIN said too). Especially when a single accidental nudge of the mouse when using the controller can really change the flow of things in Lemmings.

3: A few lines is not the same as no effort whatsoever, especially when you add in the above points. Even without, it's likely to make incredibly few extra sales, if any; Team17 would most likely benefit without adding it in, especially when their previous lemmings games didn't use it.

@SiN: i am not talking about officially-supported-says-so-right-on-the-box mouse support. i am talking about simply having the mouse duplicate action of the pad. how would the game know to use mouse? it wouldn't. simply if there is input from the mouse, it affects the position of cursor. if not, then the pad is the only way to control. there is no call for any changes to the menu system, the gui, or anything like that.

You can't do that though. This isn't a PC game where you can add an undocumented feature. You can't just "secretly" add the feature, Sony don't approve of that. If a feature is added it has to go through QA, and it needs to be done "properly". That's just the way it is with console development.


SiN

a generic usb mouse is not a sony device. it's not even a device made to sony's specifications. sony is not responsible for what happens to the game when you connect a usb mouse. ergo, any behavior of the game that is caused by such a non-standard device does not need to be documented.

@Plasma: how often are you going to just nudge a mouse? take into account the fact that the controller is wireless, so you probably will not sit anywhere near the place where mouse is located when playing with a game pad. now take in the account the fact that most people that will actually have a mouse permanently wired to the console will probably want to use the mouse for lemmings anyways. you really don't need a switch. the os takes care of checking if a mouse is connected. all that the game needs to do is add the analogue stick position with change in mouse position, with proper multipliers, and use the sum to move the cursor. in some implementations, this can be achieved by modifying a single line of code. more realistically, it will take modification in at least two lines of code with another two lines added.

a generic usb mouse is not a sony device. it's not even a device made to sony's specifications. sony is not responsible for what happens to the game when you connect a usb mouse. ergo, any behavior of the game that is caused by such a non-standard device does not need to be documented.
Sure, Sony isn't responsible for it. But Sony have a reputation to maintain. If the mouse controls don't go through QA, but for some reason cause the PS3 to lock up, people *will* call customer support. They will complain, and Sony will have some explaining to do. "That isn't a supported feature" isn't an explaination. It might be on the PC, but it sure isn't for a console.

Consoles thrive because of their inherit simplicity and their ease of use. That's largely because The Big Three control what can and cannot be put into games on their consoles.

And even if T17 did "sneak" the feature in, once it is unveiled, what's to say Sony will even approve of any of their future PlayStation games? You can't just lie to a console manufacturer and expect to get off easily.


SiN

i'm not saying t17 should sneak it in. they could probably get away with it, but there is no reason to spoil relations with sony. sony would need to give a nod of the head to t17, but it does not need to be more official than that.

there is almost no way that this can lead to new crashes undetected at qa. the only possible hole here is that a serious memory leak exists which interferes with a function meant to retrieve mouse-related data from os in a very specific way, and with no other function used by the game. the odds of this are astronomically low. otherwise, either the game would be crashing regardless of whether mouse is connected, and be caught in qa, or the crash would have nothing to do with the fact that the mouse coordinates are used, and only with the mouse being connected, which means that the problem would exist regardless of whether t17 uses mouse or not.

i'm not saying t17 should sneak it in. they could probably get away with it, but there is no reason to spoil relations with sony. sony would need to give a nod of the head to t17, but it does not need to be more official than that.

LOL. I dont know where to start.

I'm not a programer, but I can tell you that adding a new controller into a virtually finished game is not a trivial thing. It's not even a medium sized thing. It's about as trivial as adding a new steering wheel to a car in case one of the passengers fancies driving.

There is no option for adding in ANY undocumented stuff to a game during development. Not even little things. You'd be amazed at the level of detail used in the milestones that we have to agree with the publishers in advance.

You'd be amazed at the level of detail used in the milestones that we have to agree with the publishers in advance.
Does that include the daily beer quota per teamster per day?

a generic usb mouse is not a sony device. it's not even a device made to sony's specifications. sony is not responsible for what happens to the game when you connect a usb mouse. ergo, any behavior of the game that is caused by such a non-standard device does not need to be documented.
You're an idiot.

A USB mouse might not be a Sony device but that doesn't make it non-standard. Clearly Sony would want to know if Team17 have programmed anything to happen when you plug one in, not least because Team17 would have billed Sony for the time it took to do it.

Does that include the daily beer quota per teamster per day?

Don't be silly. The lager fountain in the warehouse takes care of that.

Don't be silly. The lager fountain in the warehouse takes care of that.
Wow! :eek:
All these years I have been speculating about deliveries, galleons and what not, and you have spring in the HQ.
What classification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_%28hydrosphere%29#Classification) is it? I bet it is around 1 pint/min. ;)

Excuse me? We were developing the game on behalf of Sony, who were our client. Generally speaking, people who pay for services tend to get what they request. This is generally the case in life. It's also Sony's game/IP.I know, I just like messing with people, hence the wink.

Wow! :eek:
All these years I have been speculating about deliveries, galleons and what not, and you have spring in the HQ.
What classification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_%28hydrosphere%29#Classification) is it? I bet it is around 1 pint/min. ;)
IIRC, it's about 1.5 pints per minute.
But you're still correct about the deliveries and whatnot; 1.5 pints a min is certainly not fast enough for the entire Team!

There is no option for adding in ANY undocumented stuff to a game during development. Not even little things. You'd be amazed at the level of detail used in the milestones that we have to agree with the publishers in advance.
run it as a debugging and testing feature. i am always running into that stuff in finished games, including in t17 titles. publishers either don't mind, or are not aware of these things.

A USB mouse might not be a Sony device but that doesn't make it non-standard. Clearly Sony would want to know if Team17 have programmed anything to happen when you plug one in, not least because Team17 would have billed Sony for the time it took to do it.
Today 10:21
bill for what? all 5 minutes of it? there is a difference between coding full support for an alternative input method and simply throwing one in as auxiliary. and as i said before, this would require a nod from sony. i'm only saying that sony themselves are not responsible for the behavior of the game with no mouse support when you plug in a mouse. they cannot be expected to have the system tested with every input device out there. only devices that conform to sony's specifications. so why should sony care? yes, if there was a real danger of introducing new problem this way, then sure. but the odds of that are astronomically low, as i have explained.

You asked us what the score was, we've told you. End of story. Not our problem if you can't accept it. If it's that big a deal to you, write a strong letter of complaint to Sony - it's their product.

In 1998 or so, Sony bought Psygnosis. They are now known as SCE Studio Liverpool but are still allowed to release games under the name of Psygnosis.



With the exact same owly logo? (Inserts Lemmings Argentum Pack into machine)

run it as a debugging and testing feature. i am always running into that stuff in finished games, including in t17 titles. publishers either don't mind, or are not aware of these things.

In a console title? I think not. There's a world of difference between the QA process in a console title versus a PC title.


SiN

Awesome Team17, your games always welcome! I love them! Cant wait to see your rendition of a totally new Lemmings game

In a console title? I think not. There's a world of difference between the QA process in a console title versus a PC title.
actually, i see more of the debug leftovers in console games than pc ones. on console, you are meant to have less access, so they might not be quite as conspicuous, but they are very often there.

Spadge, can you elaborate when this will be available on the NA playstation store?

Tell me: can you think of ANY playstation2 game that uses only the D-pad/one analogue, and two buttons?

Sorry to dig up an old quote, but I had to say that Championship Manager 5 is played with pretty much the START button only. Oh, and the occasional down-right on the left Analog Stick.

Spadge, can you elaborate when this will be available on the NA playstation store?

Tomorrow!

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/749/749650p1.html

So, what's the 2 for? Because it's a sequel to PSP Lemmings?

Tomorrow!

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/749/749650p1.html

Sweet, thanks. :)

So, what's the 2 for? Because it's a sequel to PSP Lemmings?Yeah, that's probably Sony's reasoning.

To be fair, the series never really used numbers much: Lemmings, Oh No More Lemmings, Holiday Lemmings, Lemmings 2: The Tribes, Lemmings 3D, Lemmings Paintball, Lemmings Chronicles, Lemmings Revolution...

Yeah, that's probably Sony's reasoning.

To be fair, the series never really used numbers much: Lemmings, Oh No More Lemmings, Holiday Lemmings, Lemmings 2: The Tribes, Lemmings 3D, Lemmings Paintball, Lemmings Chronicles, Lemmings Revolution...

Being a slight lemmings nut, I can't help but point out that 1: It's called 3D Lemmings, not Lemmings 3D and 2: That you put Chronicles in the wrong place, it comes after Lemmings 2.

Yeah, that's probably Sony's reasoning.

To be fair, the series never really used numbers much: Lemmings, Oh No More Lemmings, Holiday Lemmings, Lemmings 2: The Tribes, Lemmings 3D, Lemmings Paintball, Lemmings Chronicles, Lemmings Revolution...

Perhaps, then, they should avoid reusing them.

Team17 aren't that great at nubmers either; there's a Worms and a Worms 2 and a Worms 4, but no Worms 3. What a team they make. Sony and Team17, working together, can almost count to three.

So once they add a D to the end it doesn't count?

Yeah I think Worms 3D was just a gimmicky way of naming Worms 3, adding the D just to enfasize at it being the first 3d game in the series.

Exactly. A few games that started out 2D do that, like Earthworm Jim and Lemmings. (Though Lemmings has the double gimmick of having it before instead of after)

Being a slight lemmings nut, I can't help but point out that 1: It's called 3D Lemmings, not Lemmings 3D and 2: That you put Chronicles in the wrong place, it comes after Lemmings 2.I just wrote them in the order I remembered them. If you wanna get snippy, I was using the American names: "3D Lemmings" was released as "Lemmings 3D" and "All New World of Lemmings" was released as "Lemmings Chornicles" in America. :p

I just wrote them in the order I remembered them. If you wanna get snippy, I was using the American names: "3D Lemmings" was released as "Lemmings 3D" and "All New World of Lemmings" was released as "Lemmings Chornicles" in America. :p

Fair enough.:o Personally I prefer the original names, but America does that with everything so I've learned to cope with it.:p

This game was released last week in the US, and is simply called "Lemmings" (no "2" in the name). I got the game a few days ago (for only $2.99!), but have been so busy playing it that I haven't bothered to come back here to post about it. :)

It plays much like the original Lemmings game, mostly comparable to Team 17's PSP version of Lemmings as the controls and art style are very similar. New additions to the PS3 game include powerup tokens that your Lemmings can pick up in order to add to your inventory of assignable abilities, darkened areas that can be illuminated when passing Lemmings hit a switch, teleporters that whisk your Lemmings to another location, and cloning machines where one Lemming magically becomes two. There are just enough new elements to spice things up and make it worthwhile for veteran players, but not so much that it makes things needlessly complicated.

The online scoreboards are another excellent addition. Players are ranked by the number of lemmings they save, and the amount of time it took them to complete the level (with priority given to saving more lemmings over quickness). You can see the results for the five best players, along with your own to see how you measure up. I love the competition that arises from trying to whittle even just a few hundredths of a second off of the finish time, to attempt to move up higher on the scoreboard. I'm inspired to keep devising new strategies, just to see if somehow I can get through the level a wee bit faster. These types of "speed runs" bring a whole new element to the game which wasn't there previously.

The developers did a great job on this game. I'd surely recommend it to anyone who has a PlayStation 3 with an online connection (and have already convinced a couple of friends to get it). Thank you, Team 17, this is excellent stuff!

New additions to the PS3 game include powerup tokens that your Lemmings can pick up in order to add to your inventory of assignable abilities, darkened areas that can be illuminated when passing Lemmings hit a switch, teleporters that whisk your Lemmings to another location, and cloning machines where one Lemming magically becomes two. There are just enough new elements to spice things up and make it worthwhile for veteran players, but not so much that it makes things needlessly complicated.

That's good. As a survivor of Lemmings Revolution, you had me worried for a moment there...

Lemmings PS3 looks and plays great (although of course, we would say that!). Other people have said it's the best version bar none, not just visually either. We're dead chuffed with it. It's also got tall vertical levels as well as horizontal levels. Hopefully it'll be so successful we'll get to do some more level packs/additions for it :)

When the Euro PS3 launches I'll be snapping this up! I think it's sad that Lemmings PS3 hasn't had more coverage considering there's only a few other high quality games available at the moment.

I'm interested in how T17 coped with scaling the game from 480i/p all the way up to 1080i/p. Are you using vector graphics, raster graphics designed for 1920x1080 which scale down for the two lower display resolutions or a mixture of the two?

I'm pleased with the results in the 720p screenshots released anyway. :D