well, a pink elephant would be a pretty cool weapon... think about it :p
But if we think about it the game won't get released. :(

I just want to know whether this game will be on PC, not whether I'm thinking about a pink elephant.

No of course not....never heard of that rumour, what did you think for gods ****ing sake?

I thought it was coming to PC!!!!! :mad: why it isn't coming? :confused:


Well, if its not coming this year, i'll be buying a pink elephant :(

I'm warning you! If you think about "a pink elephant" one more time...

*ducks from incoming rock*

What if I'm colorblind and think of a pink elefant? Does that count?
Not that I'm colorblind, it's just an hypothetical question. Although I've been thinking of becoming colorblind...

30 or so someone big bugs in the xbox version, I doubt they are putting much effort into a PC version yet.

30 or so someone big bugs in the xbox version, I doubt they are putting much effort into a PC version yet.

I'd love to see a raw buggy release to fulfill my lust for worms. They can patch it up later (just like any games company does).

And yet there are many people on this forum complaining that Team17 did just that with the XBLA version. Developers can't win.

Why is the PC version being called Decade edition when it seems is going to be inferior to the original Armageddon...

Why is the PC version being called Decade edition when it seems is going to be inferior to the original Armageddon...why are you complaining about a game we have never played?

It will be too late once the game is already out but it's likely too late now.

Why is the PC version being called Decade edition when it seems is going to be inferior to the original Armageddon...

10 years is 1 decade.

W:A was released 10 years ago.

That is all.

It will be too late once the game is already out but it's likely too late now.so it's ok to complain about something you know nothing about because it'll be too late to change the things you don't know you don't like after the release?

I just meant they aren't going to change the name of the game after it has been released.

It's highly unlikely that a PC version based on the 360 version will be as good as WA since the 360 version isn't as good as WA but it does have nice effects and hats! I'm sure I missed a comma there somewhere.

I'm sure I missed a comma there somewhere.trust me, you do NOT want to do that here....

Are commas coming to PC?

It's highly unlikely that a PC version based on the 360 version will be as good as WA since the 360 version isn't as good as WA but it does have nice effects and hats! I'm sure I missed a comma there somewhere.

Nah. I'd just take out the "it" I emboldened.

Are commas coming to PC?

Yes, in fact I have one right now!

,

Who needs roping?
IMO, the ridiculous and constantly increasing focus on rope based games has killed the fun in casual, public online games in WA in the past 5 or 6 years.
And the invention of schemes like WFW, Clockworm Orange and Hysteria couldn't really stop this development.

Games like CTF, AvsA or Boomrace have disappeared completely nowadays.

We need more oldschool Worms fun with hardcoded rules to support different game modes, which are not based on the same "who-hammers-the-space-button-faster-for-roping". :p

Also, we need lasers and the SOAR!

There are many many normal games and I see CTF every once in awhile, too (at least once a day),

:eek: are you a beta tester of commas?

:eek: are you a beta tester of commas?

Yes, high demand, short supply.

As you can see I've already used some in the above statement.

Will commas have hats?

Will commas have hats?only in the Deluxe Semicolon Edition.

Will commas also have boots? You can't have hats without boots.

Will commas also have boots? You can't have hats without boots.

Nope. The Punctuation Corporation tried to get it, but Santa was asking too much.

Sorry a bit on topic.. I feel the only good thing about the new game will be that it may have more players than the original as it is going to be inferior than it...what do you think?

By any chance, ILessThanThree, have you actually played W2:A?

Just asking, for curiosity's sake.

By any chance, ILessThanThree, have you actually played W2:A?

Just asking, for curiosity's sake.

No, i have'nt..

Sorry a bit on topic.. I feel the only good thing about the new game will be that it may have more players than the original as it is going to be inferior than it...what do you think?

I think you are wrong, having actually owning it myself. The PC edition is likely to be a great game but not stronger than WA. But, they have mentioned a re-release of WA so yeah.

I think you are wrong, having actually owning it myself. The PC edition is likely to be a great game but not stronger than WA. But, they have mentioned a re-release of WA so yeah.

I hope it is and has a strong multiplayer as well which lasts..

A little update from facebook regarding PC version..

Team 17..

"We haven't even started work on the PC version, so at the moment there is nothing to talk about regarding features and we don't have a release date. Sorry."

:=(

Looks like they're having second thoughts... Maybe there won't be a PC version after all... :eek:

Looks like they're having second thoughts... Maybe there won't be a PC version after all... :eek:

Dont say that please..

Wait, did someone mention a PC version? Are they making one?

Wait, did someone mention a PC version? Are they making one?

No, are you ever tired of being wrong?

No, are you ever tired of being wrong?No, are you ever tired of being a troll? :cool:

No, are you ever tired of being a troll? :cool:

No, are you ever tired of being irony's new face?

Sorry but this forum has more immature adults than even the xbox forums where kids behave better than this, repeating same thing over 100 times to the same few people..ufff..get a life..

Back on topic( sorry )

So what you guys make of Team 17 still not touching the PC version..lack of interest? Maybe some xbox version issues to be sorted out first before they can start work on the PC? What you think...

Sorry but this forum has more immature adults than even the xbox forums where kids behave better than this, repeating same thing over 100 times to the same few people..ufff..get a life..

Back on topic( sorry )

So what you guys make of Team 17 still not touching the PC version..lack of interest? Maybe some xbox version issues to be sorted out first before they can start work on the PC? What you think...
My guess is the latter is more likely. If they're doing a direct port of the XBox version, or even using the XBox version as a base for the PC version, it'll make sense to squish the bugs in the original before porting it, otherwise you've just got to exterminate the same bug twice.

My guess is the latter is more likely. If they're doing a direct port of the XBox version, or even using the XBox version as a base for the PC version, it'll make sense to squish the bugs in the original before porting it, otherwise you've just got to exterminate the same bug twice.

I hope we dont get a port at all, at the moment Team 17 is getting bormbaded with xbox issues so that could be a reason why PC work has not yet started as most of the resources are being put into sorting out the xbox version first, Team 17 had earlier said that gam could be released late summer but now it looks more like sometime in Autumn but i hope we get a great game once it is released!

Team 17 had earlier said that gam could be released late summer but now it looks more like sometime in Autumn but i hope we get a great game once it is released!

Tottally agree......i waited 10 years already.....a couple of months does not hurt if the result will be better.

No, are you ever tired of being irony's new face? no, for irony is one sexy devil. :cool:

Where is Worms 2 Armageddon now for pc? Release it for Steam NOW as you told us!!!

Team17, whenever you make the PC version, please do NOT launch it as a Steam exclusive. Steam is bull**** (I'll explain why if anyone is interested) and I've wasted enough money on that. And if you distribute it through other Digital distribution services, do not design the game around Steamworks, cause that will force users to use Steam anyway! Just like Zeno Clash via Direct2Drive...

Team17, whenever you make the PC version, please do NOT launch it as a Steam exclusive. Steam is bull**** (I'll explain why if anyone is interested) and I've wasted enough money on that. And if you distribute it through other Digital distribution services, do not design the game around Steamworks, cause that will force users to use Steam anyway! Just like Zeno Clash via Direct2Drive...

I have never used Steam but some of my friends have same opninion as you.

I have never used Steam but some of my friends have same opninion as you.a lot of people have that opinion of steam. most of them are due to issues that have long ago been fixed. I'm sure plenty have legitimate complaints, though, but I can't seem to think of one myself.

Team17, whenever you make the PC version, please do NOT launch it as a Steam exclusive. Steam is bull**** (I'll explain why if anyone is interested) and I've wasted enough money on that. And if you distribute it through other Digital distribution services, do not design the game around Steamworks, cause that will force users to use Steam anyway! Just like Zeno Clash via Direct2Drive...I need asplain.

Why is steam so much crap?

I need asplain.

Why is steam so much crap?

Me too. Why don't you like it?

Dont ****ing change the topic here! They have to release the pc version!!! No matter if over Steam only I don't care! Steam is good!

Of course there are server problems SOMETIMES, but doesn't that every game have once in a while? Release it for pc now plz! Over Steam or not, I don't care at all!!!!

I agree...

I'm still trying to decide whether or not to buy this game. :eek:

Me and my mates usually don't play rope oriented game. I'd say only 30% of our games include the rope. But yes rope is in the majority of hosted game imho but I do see other game too

I think the people in this thread who are angry at steams are children whose mom doesn't let them borrow her credit card.

I think the people in this thread who are angry at steams are children whose mom doesn't let them borrow her credit card.

Or maybe they want to have their games in DVD....or maybe they dont want to download games from internet....or maybe they dont want to redownload the game if u have to format ur PC.....or maybe they dont want to run Steam or another client to play worms.

Maybe they should realise that solid media for games is slowly going away, and that digital distribution is on the rise.

Or maybe they want to have their games in DVD....or maybe they dont want to download games from internet....or maybe they dont want to redownload the game if u have to format ur PC.....or maybe they dont want to run Steam or another client to play worms.

Exactly^^
But i am a little worried now, will we even get the game? It would be great if Team 17 could give us some ETA for the PC version..

I sincerely hope there will indeed be a Mac version. I'm still waiting on W:A for Mac. :P

Blame whoever took over Infograms for that one :p

As for W2A on Mac, things should be easier now, with Macs using intel processors. My guess is Team17 may well "cheat" and do what EA do, and package the Windows version with Cider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransGaming_Technologies#Cider) to cut down on the Mac development time and make the whole thing easier and quicker from their perspective.

I sincerely hope there will indeed be a Mac version. I'm still waiting on W:A for Mac. :P

This is what Team 17 said on facebook regarding the mac version..

"Studio director Martyn has confirmed a mac port, and a pc port has been confirmed here before. We aren't sure of dates yet either though for either. Still to be confirmed ;)."


Now they are calling it a PC port, so does that mean we get the exact same game as the xbox? That would be a shame because PC can do much better than that, i mean so few weapons and features dont justify it being called a PC game and it also does not make any sense then to call it Worms Armageddon Decade edition...it will also not excite any xbox players who would want a PC version for its superiority, i am a bit worried :(

Blame whoever took over Infograms for that one :p

As for W2A on Mac, things should be easier now, with Macs using intel processors. My guess is Team17 may well "cheat" and do what EA do, and package the Windows version with Cider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransGaming_Technologies#Cider) to cut down on the Mac development time and make the whole thing easier and quicker from their perspective.
Ouch, I certainly hope that's not what they decide to do, though I'll pick it up even if they do.

My Macs are all definitely 'high end,' and games in Cider (especially The Sims 3) run like junk. On the other hand, they run flawlessly under Vista on the same hardware.

Exactly^^
But i am a little worried now, will we even get the game? It would be great if Team 17 could give us some ETA for the PC version..

It would be great if they would start working on it at least. :p

Where is Worms 2 Armageddon now for pc? Release it for Steam NOW as you told us!!!

Now? They did not tell us 'now'. You're wasting your time.

a lot of people have that opinion of steam. most of them are due to issues that have long ago been fixed. I'm sure plenty have legitimate complaints, though, but I can't seem to think of one myself.

I need asplain.

Why is steam so much crap?
Me too. Why don't you like it?

None of you heard of the regional pricing that was introduced to Steam last Christmas? Before that I was willing to overlook every Steam issue because I was a HUGE Valve fanboy, trust me.
Basically, the regional pricing "feature" Valve implemented last December assumed that $1=1€, resulting in a price increase for every European country, even the ones that don't use the Euro yet. The price increase was from around 35% to 250%. (http://code.google.com/p/steam-prices/)
Nowadays, when there is a Weekend Deal, Europeans often miss out on the deal because their prices stay the same as always. In other cases, Weekend Deals result in European prices being brought down to what the same product USUALLY costs in the US.
I personally stopped buying Steam games completely when Valve pulled that crap. I now use more reliable, non-moneyhat services like Impulse and GOG, and you should too. There are more crappy things with Steam than just the regional pricing, such as draconian DRM that requires the Steam client to be running to play your games. Sometimes you can't play your games in Offline Mode either.
I recently found out you have basically no rights to the games you buy on Steam. Steam basically sells you "licenses" or "subscriptions" which they can remove access to at any time. Your right to play your Steam games belongs to Valve. It's in the Steam Subscriber agreement :(

I think the people in this thread who are angry at steams are children whose mom doesn't let them borrow her credit card.

Maybe you shouldn't "think" so much, then.
Maybe they should realise that solid media for games is slowly going away, and that digital distribution is on the rise.

Like I have? I never felt attached to physical copies of games or other media and I've always supported digital distribution. Digital Distribution is the future; Steam is not.

(moderator, please merge this post and the other one I just submitted)

Mod-edit: Done
Thx

Lets summarise your post into three points:
1: They had a policy that 1€=1$. I... don't know much about that, but I can only presume it was fixed since that's no longer the case.
2: Steam has different prices for products depending on regions. This... is rather downplayed by the fact that THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE WITH GAMES! NA normally sells games cheaper than over at Europe. Aw hell, this is normally the case with nearly everything, ever!
3: Steam's DRM is considered safe and reasonable.
4: The whole "license only" thing is only raised by people who want to cause trouble. Its essentially the same as 'buying', only that you haven't got full access to, say, completely copy the entire thing. Apparently, too many people complained about how buying something should entitle you to do that despite that that hasn't been the case for the last thousand years or so.


In other words, your post doesn't come close to validating why they shouldn't use the most popular form of DRM.

Lets summarise your post into three points:
1: They had a policy that 1€=1$. I... don't know much about that, but I can only presume it was fixed since that's no longer the case.
It's still the case, unless the publisher/developer makes a special request to sell their games at properly converted currency rates. Most publishers don't and I bet Valve is happy about that. Also, Valve recently introduced another Store feature in secret. Europe is now divided into "Tiers". Tier 1, consisting of richer countries like Sweden, France and Germany, still get to pay the same ridiculous prices as always, Tier 2 gets to pay a little less and Tier 3 (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania only) get to pay a little less than US. This "Tier" system only applies to Valve's own games.

What made you think it's no longer there? Doesn't Aion being priced 59.99€ worry you? That's 40% more than $59.99, which is a ridiculous price in itself. Most of Valve's own games are priced using 1=1 conversion as well.
2: Steam has different prices for products depending on regions. This... is rather downplayed by the fact that THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE WITH GAMES! NA normally sells games cheaper than over at Europe. Aw hell, this is normally the case with nearly everything, ever!
The difference between Steam and other stores performing this practice is that STEAM IS A DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION PLATFORM. IT COSTS NO MORE FOR THE STEAM SERVERS TO SHIP CONTENT TO EUROPEAN CLIENTS THAN TO AMERICAN ONES. ALSO, BEFORE LAST DECEMBER THE PRICES WERE EQUAL AND CONVERTED THROUGH CURRENCY RATES UPON PURCHASE, except for some titles, such as Call of Duty 4.
3: Steam's DRM is considered safe and reasonable.
By who? Not by me, that's for sure. I'm not alone in that stance either. GOG (www.gog.com) is example of DRM done right, thrown into the paper bin!
4: The whole "license only" thing is only raised by people who want to cause trouble. Its essentially the same as 'buying', only that you haven't got full access to, say, completely copy the entire thing. Apparently, too many people complained about how buying something should entitle you to do that despite that that hasn't been the case for the last thousand years or so.
Do you think I'm here to cause trouble? I already explained how it worked. Here it is directly from the EULA:
"A. License Terms.

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of software and other content and updates onto your computer ("Steam Software"). You may not use Steam Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions. You understand that for reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions or otherwise enhance the Steam Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Steam Software may change over time. You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.

Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Steam Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement and the Subscription Terms. The Steam Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Steam Software." (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/)

In other words, all purchased Steam Software are terminable licenses and you don't have ownership of what you just bought. Valve can "terminate" your license with no explanation. You essentially "rent" your games full-time, except with less rights.
In other words, your post doesn't come close to validating why they shouldn't use the most popular form of DRM.

Opinions of whether I bring a convincing argument aside; I never said Team 17 shouldn't use Steam, I asked them not to use Steam exclusively. What's so bad about Impulse, greenhouse and the others? It's not like retail game stores get full time exclusive games sold only through them, right? Cause that's foolish. From the publisher/dev's eyes, it means "More DD stores to buy from= more customers=more $$$." Why not?

My personal reason as a consumer, is that I don't want to deal with Steam to play Team17's games without a disc, or in W2A's case, only being able to play it through Steam.

(On a side note, DRM is crap, in any form. It's not going to stop piracy and it never has. It only serves to screw over legitimate customers, while the pirates crack the DRM and play their games without unnecessary restrictions./rant)

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you're saying, BeefEater.

EDIT: better not say that on a public forum. To sum up what I said initially, DRM is just wrong. It isn't right that the people who pay for an application are the ones who get bent over while illegitimate users get to enjoy the same thing without getting crapware dumped on their systems.

It's still the case, unless the publisher/developer makes a special request to sell their games at properly converted currency rates. Most publishers don't and I bet Valve is happy about that. Also, Valve recently introduced another Store feature in secret. Europe is now divided into "Tiers". Tier 1, consisting of richer countries like Sweden, France and Germany, still get to pay the same ridiculous prices as always, Tier 2 gets to pay a little less and Tier 3 (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania only) get to pay a little less than US. This "Tier" system only applies to Valve's own games.

What made you think it's no longer there? Doesn't Aion being priced 59.99€ worry you? That's 40% more than $59.99, which is a ridiculous price in itself. Most of Valve's own games are priced using 1=1 conversion as well.http://steamcommunity.com/groups/1e1us

there, fight the power. congrats on having one legitimate complaint on this post.

The difference between Steam and other stores performing this practice is that STEAM IS A DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION PLATFORM. IT COSTS NO MORE FOR THE STEAM SERVERS TO SHIP CONTENT TO EUROPEAN CLIENTS THAN TO AMERICAN ONES. ALSO, BEFORE LAST DECEMBER THE PRICES WERE EQUAL AND CONVERTED THROUGH CURRENCY RATES UPON PURCHASE, except for some titles, such as Call of Duty 4. ok, all digital distribution SHOULD cost about 50% less than a boxed game at a store because it doesn't have to be boxed, shipped, stocked or sold through a retailer who also wants profits. you also skip out on the instruction manual for digital games. and yet no one complains when they pay full price for them even then. game companies are going to charge you the same price for any form of their product because it makes sense for them to do so. they don't want physical copies of games to be phased out just yet and if they dropped the price of digital distribution to what it actually costs, it would kill off physical copies pretty near instantly. I'm not saying this justifies the dollar/euro conversion, but you're a fool if you expect them to lower DD prices just because of shipping costs or the lack thereof.

In other words, all purchased Steam Software are terminable licenses and you don't have ownership of what you just bought. Valve can "terminate" your license with no explanation. You essentially "rent" your games full-time, except with less rights.um....yeah, TECHNICALLY that's all true, but have you ever heard of Valve doing this? just because they legally have the right to do so doesn't mean that they actually will and until they actually do start abusing this power, you have no room to complain about it. hell, from what I've heard of people with issues with steam, Valve have rather good customer service.

(On a side note, DRM is crap, in any form. It's not going to stop piracy and it never has. It only serves to screw over legitimate customers, while the pirates crack the DRM and play their games without unnecessary restrictions./rant)correct, except that it's entirely WRONG. DRM doesn't stop piracy and it never will. however, it cuts down on it quite a bit. there have been many research articles saying so throughout the internet.

DRM cuts down piracy? How so? Has there been any popular game that hasn't been cracked due to DRM?

DRM cuts down piracy? How so? Has there been any popular game that hasn't been cracked due to DRM?

You can't play steam games online without a valid account, so at least it works for online games.

You can't play steam games online without a valid account, so at least it works for online games.

So if I buy TF2 boxed, without any steam relation, could I pirate it to play online? No.

Because this has (for the most part) always been the case, if Steam games had TCP/IP or LAN support there's nothing the DRM could do.
So it's hardly a DRM feature stopping piracy, as nothing stops developers from hosting multiplayer servers that require validation.

DRM cuts down piracy? How so? Has there been any popular game that hasn't been cracked due to DRM?all games get pirated. it's a fact of life. the point is, DRM will, in some cases, make the retail copy more enjoyable than the pirated copy. in the case of team fortress 2, for instance, the DRM is extremely successful because if you pirate the game you're limited to a significantly smaller game pool. this make the retail copy more appealing to even the pirates, and results in more sales.

obviously there is nothing anyone can do that will stop piracy completely, but if done right DRM can vastly cut down on the issue. I'm not saying steam is perfect by any means here, but it's definitely DRM done well.

edit: and rereading through your second post, yakuza, I think I misunderstood the first scan through. you make a good point in that it's not really the DRM that's doing the job there, but that's a part of the DRM in a sense. the server validation is just a more thorough solution. beefeater's complaint was that DRM doesn't help in any way and just serves the screw over paying customers, but the fact that TF2 has to be purchased to be fully enjoyed is a perfect example against his argument. whether it's strictly the initial DRM that is Steam doing that job or the further server validation later on in the process, it's all part of the same whole.

all games get pirated. it's a fact of life. the point is, DRM will, in some cases, make the retail copy more enjoyable than the pirated copy. in the case of team fortress 2, for instance, the DRM is extremely successful because if you pirate the game you're limited to a significantly smaller game pool. this make the retail copy more appealing to even the pirates, and results in more sales.

obviously there is nothing anyone can do that will stop piracy completely, but if done right DRM can vastly cut down on the issue. I'm not saying steam is perfect by any means here, but it's definitely DRM done well.

I understand, what I'm trying to say is that the DRM isn't a reason itself stopping piracy, it only works with games that require you to jump to the developer's servers to enjoy the multiplayer aspect, and that those things have long existed before Steam's DRM, Microsoft, Blizzard, they all had working authentification procedures for their multiplayer "lobbies" that were impossible to crack.

It's a pedantic argument anyway.

I understand, what I'm trying to say is that the DRM isn't a reason itself stopping piracy, it only works with games that require you to jump to the developer's servers to enjoy the multiplayer aspect, and that those things have long existed before Steam's DRM, Microsoft, Blizzard, they all had working authentification procedures for their multiplayer "lobbies" that were impossible to crack.

It's a pedantic argument anyway.yeah, I realized your point shortly after posting. I was editing my post as you were replying here.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/1e1us

there, fight the power. congrats on having one legitimate complaint on this post.
Do you think I'm inbred or something? Of course I know of that group, I'm a member of it. I visit the group's site Steam Unpowered regularly.

ok, all digital distribution SHOULD cost about 50% less than a boxed game at a store because it doesn't have to be boxed, shipped, stocked or sold through a retailer who also wants profits. you also skip out on the instruction manual for digital games. and yet no one complains when they pay full price for them even then. game companies are going to charge you the same price for any form of their product because it makes sense for them to do so. they don't want physical copies of games to be phased out just yet and if they dropped the price of digital distribution to what it actually costs, it would kill off physical copies pretty near instantly. I'm not saying this justifies the dollar/euro conversion, but you're a fool if you expect them to lower DD prices just because of shipping costs or the lack thereof.
Congratulations on great reading comprehension. The guy pointed out that all games stores (retail ones) price their games differently depending on region, that it's noting new. I responded saying that the difference between DD and retail stores is that retail buy their games from elsewhere and have to pay for shipping. If a European game store imports its games they will naturally cost more. With DD the distributor don't have any restrictions. It takes no more resource to send a game to China than to US, thus EQUAL prices are no biggie. Taxes can be added on a country by country basis, just like how it was with Steam before last Christmas.

I NEVER said the games should cost less than retail.

um....yeah, TECHNICALLY that's all true, but have you ever heard of Valve doing this? just because they legally have the right to do so doesn't mean that they actually will and until they actually do start abusing this power, you have no room to complain about it. hell, from what I've heard of people with issues with steam, Valve have rather good customer service.
If they are able to abuse their powers so gravely in the first place then they have too much power. It doesn't matter if they use it or not, they have free reign and any smart consumer won't like that. Valve has already shown how much they care about their users if they make such an unfair subscriber agreement, not to mention setting prices differently over the world. They are greedy ****bags and they're addicted to control.

I hear Steam's customer service is terrible, but I haven't read up much on the subject. Neither have you, though, so we're even.
correct, except that it's entirely WRONG. DRM doesn't stop piracy and it never will. however, it cuts down on it quite a bit. there have been many research articles saying so throughout the internet.

Who cares if it puts a roadblock in front of piracy, if it both screws legitimate customers in the process AND doesn't result in additional sales? DRM won't make pirates go and buy their games, and as soon as a crack hits the web the piracy will continue. DRM is a deal breaker for many gamers, and only encourages they pirate their games instead. The only way to stop piracy is to learn to respect your customers, something most game companies have forgotten. You might get a few pirates to buy your games, and the others wouldn't have bought your game anyway.


This is all beside the point though, if there are many people that don't use Steam, no matter their reasons for it, but use other digital distributors instead, then it would only be a smart move for T17 to distribute their games via those stores as well.
I don't demand T17 not to use Steam at all (though that would be noble), only to give us alternatives. I won't buy W2A via Steam. I might buy it if it comes out on, say, Impulse (http://www.impulsedriven.com/) as well, since games bought on Impulse
1. Aren't tied to a client running in the background, unlike Steam and
2. Don't use local pricing schemes.
I am one of many who would do this.
I most definitely would re-buy the original Worms Armageddon via GOG.com (http://www.gog.com/) were it ever released on there... It's the best DD service of them all, even though it lacks the new games.

Well, Steam or otherwise i just want the game:(, no one from here posts on Facebook, if you all start posting on facebook maybe Team 17 will show some urgency towards the PC version, comeon PC community!

Congratulations on great reading comprehension. The guy pointed out that all games stores (retail ones) price their games differently depending on region, that it's noting new. I responded saying that the difference between DD and retail stores is that retail buy their games from elsewhere and have to pay for shipping. If a European game store imports its games they will naturally cost more. With DD the distributor don't have any restrictions. It takes no more resource to send a game to China than to US, thus EQUAL prices are no biggie. Taxes can be added on a country by country basis, just like how it was with Steam before last Christmas.

I NEVER said the games should cost less than retail.what I was trying to get across was that your point in it being digitial distribution, and that because of that it shouldn't cost so much was rather moot. companies overprice all digital downloads for the reason I listed before, so the entire argument is pointless. if a company is pricing something poorly, the fact that it's unfair is irrelevant, it's just the company in question having (a) bad business practice(s).


If they are able to abuse their powers so gravely in the first place then they have too much power. It doesn't matter if they use it or not, they have free reign and any smart consumer won't like that. Valve has already shown how much they care about their users if they make such an unfair subscriber agreement, not to mention setting prices differently over the world. They are greedy ****bags and they're addicted to control. so then your problem isn't with steam, you have a problem with authority. Valve wants to protect themselves legally and so they come up with a EULA that is over the top and leaves them in complete control of their own assets. in doing this they gain power over those using said assets, but that's simply a side effect of their own protection. the vast majority of all companies do this exact same thing in a manner equally obtrusive as valve's method, but so long as these companies don't actually USE the powers they've legally granted themselves without good cause then there's no reason to complain.

technically, blizzard could ban every WoW account with a character who's name is intended to put forth a message (ex: Biteyour Anklesoff), because they've legally granted themselves the right to do so in their EULA. fact of the matter is, though, that they don't do that, and so long as they don't people will continue to support their endeavors. HAVING power doesn't make you a bad person. people in important positions NEED to have power. the trick is finding someone in said position who won't use said power until they absolutely have to.

Who cares if it puts a roadblock in front of piracy, if it both screws legitimate customers in the process AND doesn't result in additional sales? DRM won't make pirates go and buy their games, and as soon as a crack hits the web the piracy will continue. DRM is a deal breaker for many gamers, and only encourages they pirate their games instead. The only way to stop piracy is to learn to respect your customers, something most game companies have forgotten. You might get a few pirates to buy your games, and the others wouldn't have bought your game anyway. you're not listening. it DOES result in additional sales. you're making the assumption that there are two types of people here: one that pirates games and one that doesn't. this isn't the case. many people pirate because it's convenient and easy, but if you slap a basic level of DRM, those people won't care enough to bother and will just go buy the game. others will pirate a game so long as their experience is the same as the retail regardless of the amount of work they have to put forth, but once you've done something to make the experience of the pirated version less than the retail, these people will also go buy the game. there are also those, of course, who will pirate the game no matter what the circumstances are.

there are many of shades of digital pirates. some can be deterred easier than others, and any of them being deterred will yield higher sales figures.

and the fact of the matter is, 90% of the time, DRM will only provide a minor inconvenience to those actually purchasing the game. things like starforce are boycotted for a reason, but most DRM is perfectly non-intrusive.


This is all beside the point though, if there are many people that don't use Steam, no matter their reasons for it, but use other digital distributors instead, then it would only be a smart move for T17 to distribute their games via those stores as well.
I don't demand T17 not to use Steam at all (though that would be noble), only to give us alternatives. I won't buy W2A via Steam. I might buy it if it comes out on, say, Impulse (http://www.impulsedriven.com/) as well, since games bought on Impulse
1. Aren't tied to a client running in the background, unlike Steam and
2. Don't use local pricing schemes.
I am one of many who would do this.
I most definitely would re-buy the original Worms Armageddon via GOG.com (http://www.gog.com/) were it ever released on there... It's the best DD service of them all, even though it lacks the new games.no one disagrees that the digital distribution would benefit from being available in more than one place. we were only arguing your points against steam.

Now? They did not tell us 'now'. You're wasting your time.

NOW!!!!!

And there is no piracy problem! Worms is meant for playing online and you can't crack that **** and play online on every server so relax! Release it NOW and we will buy it :) I will....

NOW!!!!!

And there is no piracy problem! Worms is meant for playing online and you can't crack that **** and play online on every server so relax! Release it NOW and we will buy it :) I will....

I hope to get it by November because it is my birthday then:)

what I was trying to get across was that your point in it being digitial distribution, and that because of that it shouldn't cost so much was rather moot. companies overprice all digital downloads for the reason I listed before, so the entire argument is pointless. if a company is pricing something poorly, the fact that it's unfair is irrelevant, it's just the company in question having (a) bad business practice(s).
Like I said, I DON'T expect publishers to price their DD games lower than their retail games. I only expect that DD prices be equal everywhere in the world. Hell, Steam can slap a 59.99 label on all its games and I'd be fine with that, as long as EVERYONE pays in $, with proper currency conversion from their native currency.

so then your problem isn't with steam, you have a problem with authority. Valve wants to protect themselves legally and so they come up with a EULA that is over the top and leaves them in complete control of their own assets. in doing this they gain power over those using said assets, but that's simply a side effect of their own protection. the vast majority of all companies do this exact same thing in a manner equally obtrusive as valve's method, but so long as these companies don't actually USE the powers they've legally granted themselves without good cause then there's no reason to complain.

technically, blizzard could ban every WoW account with a character who's name is intended to put forth a message (ex: Biteyour Anklesoff), because they've legally granted themselves the right to do so in their EULA. fact of the matter is, though, that they don't do that, and so long as they don't people will continue to support their endeavors. HAVING power doesn't make you a bad person. people in important positions NEED to have power. the trick is finding someone in said position who won't use said power until they absolutely have to.
Difference is, Valve sells other games than their own, with the same subscriber agreement. They are a distributor in most cases, not a developer. I don't like not having control over what I buy. It's a pretty serious thing IMO. I don't care what company does it. It's a douchebag move.
you're not listening. it DOES result in additional sales. you're making the assumption that there are two types of people here: one that pirates games and one that doesn't. this isn't the case. many people pirate because it's convenient and easy, but if you slap a basic level of DRM, those people won't care enough to bother and will just go buy the game. others will pirate a game so long as their experience is the same as the retail regardless of the amount of work they have to put forth, but once you've done something to make the experience of the pirated version less than the retail, these people will also go buy the game. there are also those, of course, who will pirate the game no matter what the circumstances are.

there are many of shades of digital pirates. some can be deterred easier than others, and any of them being deterred will yield higher sales figures.

and the fact of the matter is, 90% of the time, DRM will only provide a minor inconvenience to those actually purchasing the game. things like starforce are boycotted for a reason, but most DRM is perfectly non-intrusive.
There only needs to be one or two good hackers to make a crack and upload it to a bittorrent site. Then, the crack spreads by itself. The other pirates will download the crack that took so much effort to make, without wasting any effort at all. When the DRM's cracked, it's cracked.

no one disagrees that the digital distribution would benefit from being available in more than one place. we were only arguing your points against steam.

I technically could just say that I don't "like" Steam for no reason at all and ask T17 to put the game on other DD's. The customer doesn't need a reason, because the customer is right. If you see that many customers don't use Steam, but instead use another DD to buy their games from, you don't ask them why the hell they don't use Steam, you put the game on the other DD as well. As long as a store is big enough to generate profits, it's a good idea to put your games on it.

You guys should post this stuff about Steam on Facebook and let your concerns be known, Team 17 will take notice of this, Team 17 have so far only said that it will be via digital distribution and have not specifically said Steam so..

Like I said, I DON'T expect publishers to price their DD games lower than their retail games. I only expect that DD prices be equal everywhere in the world. Hell, Steam can slap a 59.99 label on all its games and I'd be fine with that, as long as EVERYONE pays in $, with proper currency conversion from their native currency.

Different territories have different economies and demands. It's not fair to expect the world to pay US prices when it might be more or less than they'd pay if the game was released solely in their territory.

I can't help the feeling that BeefEater is a lousy advertiser.

Mainly because his entire posting history concentrates on GOG.com.

Upon browsing said site, it does look to be a fairly stable platform. However, I noticed that all of the games they are selling are fairly old.
For example?

Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six. The original one. Released "August 22, 1998".
The newest game that I recognise there would be Unreal Tournament 2004.
Yes, 2004.

And such amazingly fun-sounding titles too!
"Neighbours from Hell Compilation"
"Battle Chess Special Edition"
"The Feeble Files"
"Teenagent"
"Redneck Rampage Collection"

Unless the service gets more games that are actually any good, nobody's going to take them seriously.

To be fair, they do have a few good games (for example, all of the Earthworm Jim games) but nothing really strikes me as being particularly interesting or cool.

The reason why none of their games have DRM is because the original game did not have DRM either.
Hence making me wonder if they're not pirated in the first place anyway...

The orinigal Rainbow Six was awesome. :cool:

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you're saying, BeefEater.

EDIT: better not say that on a public forum. To sum up what I said initially, DRM is just wrong. It isn't right that the people who pay for an application are the ones who get bent over while illegitimate users get to enjoy the same thing without getting crapware dumped on their systems.

The answer is simple. Download the "illegitimate copy" after you pay for the game. Completely legal.

The answer is simple. Download the "illegitimate copy" after you pay for the game. Completely legal.and now we get the justification that they're boycotting because they shouldn't have to do this....

Like I said, I DON'T expect publishers to price their DD games lower than their retail games. I only expect that DD prices be equal everywhere in the world. Hell, Steam can slap a 59.99 label on all its games and I'd be fine with that, as long as EVERYONE pays in $, with proper currency conversion from their native currency.

I agree, on this.


Difference is, Valve sells other games than their own, with the same subscriber agreement. They are a distributor in most cases, not a developer. I don't like not having control over what I buy. It's a pretty serious thing IMO. I don't care what company does it. It's a douchebag move.

WHO THE HELL CARES! SERIOUSLY! I don't care if they can shut down my computer. As long as they don't do it, who cares!?!?? It's a freakin legal thing, they're lawyers told them to put it in. They aren't doing it to gain power!


There only needs to be one or two good hackers to make a crack and upload it to a bittorrent site. Then, the crack spreads by itself. The other pirates will download the crack that took so much effort to make, without wasting any effort at all. When the DRM's cracked, it's cracked.

You aren't getting the point. Even if it's cracked, they can't crack online. And some cracks are very hard to apply, sometimes you have to be an advanced computer user / read up alot on it in order to apply it. It's not like the cracks for casual games where you copy one thing from here and paste it there.

1. Pirates want online multiplayer.

2. Some pirates aren't advanced users / can't be arssed.

3. Some pirates don't have a fast enough internet connection, so they don't want to download the game, so they go buy one at their local GameStop store.


I technically could just say that I don't "like" Steam for no reason at all and ask T17 to put the game on other DD's. The customer doesn't need a reason, because the customer is right. If you see that many customers don't use Steam, but instead use another DD to buy their games from, you don't ask them why the hell they don't use Steam, you put the game on the other DD as well. As long as a store is big enough to generate profits, it's a good idea to put your games on it.

We are just arguing over steam's faults. Not T17.

Can anyone tell me what kind of ranking system was there in W:A, i only have WWP, and do you think there should be a ranking system in W:A decade edition also? Maybe a newer one..?

The original W:A ranking system was just a basic ladder, wasn't it? Same as recent Worms games, I believe.

You guys should post this stuff about Steam on Facebook and let your concerns be known, Team 17 will take notice of this, Team 17 have so far only said that it will be via digital distribution and have not specifically said Steam so..

Maybe I should try Facebook... But you're incorrect, Team17 mentioned that the PC version would be distributed via Steam. They haven't mentioned any other distributors, which worries me.
Different territories have different economies and demands. It's not fair to expect the world to pay US prices when it might be more or less than they'd pay if the game was released solely in their territory.

So it's fair to charge me more even though I'm no richer than the average American? Besides, Impulse seems to have no problem even though all their games are equally priced over the world... Steam certainly didn't have a problem before local currency was introduced either... It was as popular as ever.





I can't help the feeling that BeefEater is a lousy advertiser.

Mainly because his entire posting history concentrates on GOG.com
If you mean an advertiser of the hired kind, then no I am not. And I advertise GOG because it's an awesome service and I want the community to grow even more.
Primarily, I want T17 to put their old games on there, which is the main reason I mention it.
Upon browsing said site, it does look to be a fairly stable platform. However, I noticed that all of the games they are selling are fairly old.
For example?

Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six. The original one. Released "August 22, 1998".
The newest game that I recognise there would be Unreal Tournament 2004.
Yes, 2004.
Yeah, a site called GOG sells Good Old Games, who could have thought... If you haven't heard of GOG or know what it is then blame it on your own ignorance. It's a popular site with a great games library and a great community.
And such amazingly fun-sounding titles too!
"Neighbours from Hell Compilation"
"Battle Chess Special Edition"
"The Feeble Files"
"Teenagent"
"Redneck Rampage Collection"
I haven't played any of those titles, but at least 3 of the ones you mentioned are, according to reviews and fan following, good/great games/cult classics, and Teenagent is supposed to be both good and FREE.
Unless the service gets more games that are actually any good, nobody's going to take them seriously.
How about Fallout 1 and 2? Beneath a Steel Sky (free)?
Duke Nukem 3D?
Prince of Persia?
Beyond Good & Evil?
Broken Sword series?
I could go on and on and on, but I get the feeling you've never heard of these games anyway. I'm wasting my time on you.
Hell, you judge games based on what they're called without looking at their score or reviews. It's very arrogant. GOG is taken very seriously, even Ubisoft have put their old games on there, free from DRM.
To be fair, they do have a few good games (for example, all of the Earthworm Jim games) but nothing really strikes me as being particularly interesting or cool.
Maybe the games aren't new and hip enough for you... FYI Earthworm Jim's not close to being in the top of the titles on GOG. IMO, of course.
The reason why none of their games have DRM is because the original game did not have DRM either.
Wrong. Many (most?) of the games had DRM before they came to GOG. DRM is very old, and even the most ancient games have DRM of some form, such as CD check and/or CD keys.
Hence making me wonder if they're not pirated in the first place anyway...
smh
Do you think CDProjekt (makers of The Witcher and GOG.com) would sell pirated games over the net?

It's just. Incomprehensible. The impulsivity of some people. Talking **** about things they know nothing about. Just, check the facts before posting, please. You'll do us all a favor.



This is also completely off topic. Talk about the topic at hand instead of accusing people of being whatever. I mentioned GOG as an example of where T17 could put their old games and as an example of a store having a no DRM policy and still selling truckloads of DD games. I also mentioned Stardock's Impulse as an example of where they could put their new games, but perhaps that went over your head while you were obsessed with your theories of me being an advertiser for GOG.






and now we get the justification that they're boycotting because they shouldn't have to do this....

Precisely. But I haven't heard of any particular group boycotting Steam because of its DRM in particular, I just personally dislike it along with a many others.





I agree, on this.
Cool


WHO THE HELL CARES! SERIOUSLY! I don't care if they can shut down my computer. As long as they don't do it, who cares!?!?? It's a freakin legal thing, they're lawyers told them to put it in. They aren't doing it to gain power!
You honestly wouldn't care if they had the power to shut down your computer? And yes, it's very much a legal thing, which is exactly why it should be taken seriously. I don't care that the general public don't care. They are sheep.
How would you know Valve's motives? You don't have to give yourself this many rights to feel legally secure. Unless you're paranoid and don't trust your userbase.
You aren't getting the point. Even if it's cracked, they can't crack online. And some cracks are very hard to apply, sometimes you have to be an advanced computer user / read up alot on it in order to apply it. It's not like the cracks for casual games where you copy one thing from here and paste it there.
1. Pirates want online multiplayer.

Whatever. DRM still isn't justified. And I don't count server authentication (being able to play online on official servers) as DRM.

2. Some pirates aren't advanced users / can't be arssed.
That's what cracked versions of games are for. They're already cracked so the end user (lazy pirate) won't have to be arsed.
3. Some pirates don't have a fast enough internet connection, so they don't want to download the game, so they go buy one at their local GameStop store.
Or they simply don't download the game and don't buy it either. "Prove me wrong."

We are just arguing over steam's faults. Not T17.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious.


I don't want to argue about Steam. YOU people made me bring up my grudges against Steam. At first I simply said "Steam is bull**** and I won't buy more games from it, so please put the game on other platforms". I just want T17 to put their games on other channels AS WELL as on Steam.
So please. Stop arguing about Steam, you won't change my mind about Steam just like I won't change yours. If you're going to reply to this post, only talk about WHY T17 should put their games on Steam EXCLUSIVELY.

How would you know Valve's motives? You don't have to give yourself this many rights to feel legally secure. Unless you're paranoid and don't trust your userbase.

Uh... Valve is based in America, so yes they have.

I don't want to argue about Steam. YOU people made me bring up my grudges against Steam. At first I simply said "Steam is bull**** and I won't buy more games from it, so please put the game on other platforms". I just want T17 to put their games on other channels AS WELL as on Steam.
So please. Stop arguing about Steam, you won't change my mind about Steam just like I won't change yours. If you're going to reply to this post, only talk about WHY T17 should put their games on Steam EXCLUSIVELY.
Then you should have said: "Can/Will Team17 release this game on other digital platforms?" and end it there.

Uh... Valve is based in America, so yes they have.
So what if they're based in America? It doesn't mean they have to restrict what people do with the games they buy, except for copying and distributing the games over the net for free. This has nothing to do with where the company is based.
Then you should have said: "Can/Will Team17 release this game on other digital platforms?" and end it there.

Maybe I could have. But, I figured, many Steam fans posting here would tell me to "just get it on Steam :rolleyes:"

Can/Will Team17 release this game on other digital platforms? ;)

So what if they're based in America? It doesn't mean they have to restrict what people do with the games they buy, except for copying and distributing the games over the net for free. This has nothing to do with where the company is based.they DON'T restrict you. they DO, however, give themselves the rights to do so because the american legal system says that if they don't then they can be sued for one reason or another. the legal rights they've given themselves are there because, as americans, they have to protect themselves or risk losing tons of money.

they DON'T restrict you. they DO, however, give themselves the rights to do so because the american legal system says that if they don't then they can be sued for one reason or another. the legal rights they've given themselves are there because, as americans, they have to protect themselves or risk losing tons of money.

Wow, they can be sued for selling real ownership to their games? Even if that is with terms of use saying the user can't share copies with others? I'm just curious, please educate me :)

Wow, they can be sued for selling real ownership to their games? Even if that is with terms of use saying the user can't share copies with others? I'm just curious, please educate me :)

The point is that if you're based in america you want to protect yourself against any possible scenario regardless of how ridiculous it might sound because, if you can think about it, someone else can and will try to use it against you. And the legal system in America doesn't give a **** about how ridiculous something sounds as long as you find a loophole somewhere.

So it's fair to charge me more even though I'm no richer than the average American?

In terms of economy I guess if you earn proportionally the same as the average American, you should be charged the same. Factor territorial demands into the equation and someone outside the USA might have to pay more. I never studied business so I don't know for sure.

I highly doubt Team17 will price their games according to your wallet, though, so you can stop going on about it if you like. We know your point but arguing it against a bunch of people on the Internet isn't going to solve anything.

Unless I'm missing something... it has been known to happen.

Again i say, no harm in letting Team 17 know of these concerns via Facebook, you are most likely to get a reply their too!

The point is that if you're based in america you want to protect yourself against any possible scenario regardless of how ridiculous it might sound because, if you can think about it, someone else can and will try to use it against you. And the legal system in America doesn't give a **** about how ridiculous something sounds as long as you find a loophole somewhere.

I can believe that :) But what I wonder is, do many american developers or distributors sell their games with the condition that they can interfere with the game you've bought? Because Steam gives Valve those liberties. They mostly use them justly (such as banning hackers through VAC) but mistakes can happen. If I buy a game that I can play without online based DRM running in the background, if the dev/publisher wants to take my game from me they'll have to go over to my house and take it, so to say :P And then they most likely won't bother, even if they have the right to :p

In terms of economy I guess if you earn proportionally the same as the average American, you should be charged the same. Factor territorial demands into the equation and someone outside the USA might have to pay more. I never studied business so I don't know for sure.

I highly doubt Team17 will price their games according to your wallet, though, so you can stop going on about it if you like. We know your point but arguing it against a bunch of people on the Internet isn't going to solve anything.

Unless I'm missing something... it has been known to happen.

I just don't like Steam because the prices are usually done with 1-1 conversion, of course it doesn't mean T17 can't decide to have their Steam price properly converted :) I just won't buy it from Steam, no matter what. Because I don't want to give Valve my money and I don't want to run Steam to play my games :) It decreases performance and is a waste of resources, except for the Friends and Community overlay.


I'll just go and register a Facebook account now :)

It decreases performance and is a waste of resources
I get that you don't want to support Steam, and that is a legit reason, but I don't think W2:A is a resource-demanding game.

I can believe that :) But what I wonder is, do many american developers or distributors sell their games with the condition that they can interfere with the game you've bought? did I mention blizzard's ability to ban any and all accounts with a name that could possibly be construed as meaning something? :rolleyes:

I get that you don't want to support Steam, and that is a legit reason, but I don't think W2:A is a resource-demanding game.

Exactly, so why make it more resource hungry than it needs to be? That memory and processing power could be used for more important background apps :p
did I mention blizzard's ability to ban any and all accounts with a name that could possibly be construed as meaning something? :rolleyes:

Well yes, but WoW is very subscription based, you pay per month etc. unlike some singe player FPS that happens to be on Steam. I don't think Starcraft's as restrictive, right? ;) I guess what I'm trying to say is, WoW is more of a "service" than most games. If you get banned, don't you just have to get a new account, not a new game?

Exactly, so why make it more resource hungry than it needs to be? That memory and processing power could be used for more important background apps :pif steam is taking up a notable amount of your background processing ability, I pity the state of your computer :p

I'm trying to say is, WoW is more of a "service" than most games. If you get banned, don't you just have to get a new account, not a new game?

Stupid argument, you're drawing the line on imaginary points that suit your flawed argumentation.

Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Diablo 2, all Blizzard games you can get banned for the slightest of things IF THE COMPANY CHOOSES TO, just because they protect their own interests doesn't mean they go around using that power to punish the clients, so likewise, there's no reason for me to hate Steam just because they could ban me for being black if they chose to.

If you get banned from WoW, which doesn't happen just for having a name that means something even though it is in their EULA (they can warn you first, ignore it, give you a temporary suspension up to 3 times before they actually ban you), then you have to buy WoW, 15 euros, The Burning Crusade, 15 euros, The Wrath of the Lich King, 30 euros, and then you have 30 free days to play, it's 13 euros a month after that. That's 60 euros, not many steam games cost that much.

if steam is taking up a notable amount of your background processing ability, I pity the state of your computer :p

I have a dual core processor. Like I said, it's unnecessary to run Steam in the background. I don't care if a performance hit is negligible, it shouldn't be there. I shouldn't have to have Steam INSTALLED to run games I've bought from it, in my little dream world. The games should be standalone like they always were.

Stupid argument, you're drawing the line on imaginary points that suit your flawed argumentation.
I was asking a QUESTION. And WoW IS a service because it's regularly maintained and updated, and it's an online only game that you pay monthly to play, unlike most Steam games. And you don't have to insult me to get your point across, etiher.
Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Diablo 2, all Blizzard games you can get banned for the slightest of things IF THE COMPANY CHOOSES TO, just because they protect their own interests doesn't mean they go around using that power to punish the clients, so likewise, there's no reason for me to hate Steam just because they could ban me for being black if they chose to.
1. I trust Blizzard more than Valve
2. Steam is not a game, it sells games with MMO-style subscriptions, and it sells games not made by Valve.
3. Though you don't care about your legal rights, I do mine.
4. I have a hard time believing you can be banned from anything but online play in a game like Starcraft, which has off-line skirmish and campaign as well as the online component.
If you get banned from WoW, which doesn't happen just for having a name that means something even though it is in their EULA (they can warn you first, ignore it, give you a temporary suspension up to 3 times before they actually ban you), then you have to buy WoW, 15 euros, The Burning Crusade, 15 euros, The Wrath of the Lich King, 30 euros, and then you have 30 free days to play, it's 13 euros a month after that. That's 60 euros, not many steam games cost that much.
Thanks for telling, I wasn't aware that you had to re-buy your game copies. I read up on it a bit now, and it seems you need new CD Keys.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make about the price. Blizzard sells their games via retail, and the retailer decides the price. If Blizzard don't charge the same monthly fees for every region online, then shame on them.
And while Blizzard have it in the WoW EULA that you can't have suggestive names, Valve have it in Steam's EULA that they don't need a reason to ban you.

Honestly, I'm bored arguing about the legal stuff. Scratch that point. Let's just say I don't like Steam's prices and the DRM. That's reason enough not to use Steam. They are my main points, anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over because we're arguing for no reason. I've asked my question on Facebook, where I will more likely get an answer from T17 themselves. We can just leave it at that.

And you don't have to insult me to get your point across, etiher.yes, clearly you are capable of ignoring every point of our posts all on your own without insults being necessary.

I was asking a QUESTION. And WoW IS a service because it's regularly maintained and updated, and it's an online only game that you pay monthly to play, unlike most Steam games. And you don't have to insult me to get your point across, etiher.

Steam is also a service, you're using semantics to argue smoke.


1. I trust Blizzard more than Valve

That's your personal opinion and it has no relevance whatosever to the argument.


2. Steam is not a game, it sells games with MMO-style subscriptions, and it sells games not made by Valve.

I don't get what this is supposed to mean.


3. Though you don't care about your legal rights, I do mine.

I do, and, unlike you, I also understand the legal rights a company has, the fraud that goes on and the means big companies have to go through to protect their own interests. And if the end, I use their product and I'm satisfied I won't go out of my way to complaint about hypotheticals that can't and won't happen. Succesful companies are usually seen as the big devil, and the main reason for this is that people are idiots. And there's not much else to say about this absolute fact.

I also know of idiots, usually goverment employees that have too much free time in their hands, fits the profile of one likely to join one of those anti steam organization.


4. I have a hard time believing you can be banned from anything but online play in a game like Starcraft, which has off-line skirmish and campaign as well as the online component.


I don't understand the point you're trying to make about the price. Blizzard sells their games via retail, and the retailer decides the price. If Blizzard don't charge the same monthly fees for every region online, then shame on them.

Of course they don't! Games are cheaper in China... if you have a western salary if you know what I mean. Blizzard also has a digital store, were you can buy and download their titles, and depending on were you live, it has a different price, this is why they're having a hard time with Chinese websites selling CD KEYS for cheap so you can later download the game via the digital store, with the CD KEY only.


And while Blizzard have it in the WoW EULA that you can't have suggestive names, Valve have it in Steam's EULA that they don't need a reason to ban you.

Are you serious? For someone who cares so much about legal rights you sure know nothing about the law.
And for the record, they do have that statement on the user agreement, with a different wording mind you, what's with legal documents being so verbose lol WHY DO DOCTORS HAVE SUCH BAD CALLIGRAPHY you know what grinds my gears




As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over because we're arguing for no reason. I've asked my question on Facebook, where I will more likely get an answer from T17 themselves. We can just leave it at that.

what's your facebook m8 do you

makers of The Witcher

Well, I won't be buying anything from them then.

Oh, and by the way...

If this site sells "Good Old Games" then why are you suggesting a new game be sold through it?

They sell old games. Fair enough. But selling a new game on a site NAMED after selling OLD games doesn't make sense. So why bother asking us to even contemplate such a ridiculous idea?
New games are too hip to be with old games.

I have nothing against old games. It's just that they have an extremely low amount of good ones.
Where are the Lemmings? Monkey Island? DOOM? SimCity? All very very good old games - and not listed. Why not?

If this site sells "Good Old Games" then why are you suggesting a new game be sold through it?

I think he wants the same policy of no DRM, infinite installations on multiple machines for newer games.
I have nothing against old games. It's just that they have an extremely low amount of good ones.
Where are the Lemmings? Monkey Island? DOOM? SimCity? All very very good old games - and not listed. Why not?
Because most of the top-selling, good games still get sold by their publishers today, even if they're old.

Dont ****ing change the topic here! They have to release the pc version!!! No matter if over Steam only I don't care! Steam is good!

Of course there are server problems SOMETIMES, but doesn't that every game have once in a while? Release it for pc now plz! Over Steam or not, I don't care at all!!!!

Please, shut up. Repeatedly saying "RLS PC Version now!!!" will do nothing. It will come when it comes. The end.

Well, I won't be buying anything from them then.

Oh, and by the way...

If this site sells "Good Old Games" then why are you suggesting a new game be sold through it?

They sell old games. Fair enough. But selling a new game on a site NAMED after selling OLD games doesn't make sense. So why bother asking us to even contemplate such a ridiculous idea?
New games are too hip to be with old games.

I have nothing against old games. It's just that they have an extremely low amount of good ones.
Where are the Lemmings? Monkey Island? DOOM? SimCity? All very very good old games - and not listed. Why not?

You people shut learn to read before posting. He has repeatedly stated he wants T17 to release W:A on GOG, not W2:A. In case you don't know, W:A was released 10 years ago. I don't think that's considered new and hip.

But, T17 might not want to release it on GOG because they are still selling W:A at their store. Releasing it on GOG might decrease their sales. Then again, they might get more advertising if so many people go to GOG everyday.

Also, he wasn't saying The Whitcher was any good. He was stating that they are a reputable company that made a well known, even if infamous, game.

yes, clearly you are capable of ignoring every point of our posts all on your own without insults being necessary.

I don't ignore your points... I acknowledge Blizzard has the right to ban your WoW account for whatever. I just don't see what that has to do with Steam, which is a STORE where you BUY games and not a bloody MMO.
Steam is also a service, you're using semantics to argue smoke.
Like I said, services can be anything. WoW is a game. Steam is a games store. See the difference?


That's your personal opinion and it has no relevance whatosever to the argument.
I trust Blizzard more because they don't run a shop that sells games at different (unfair) price points depending on region.



I don't get what this is supposed to mean.
It means Steam is not a game unlike WoW, Steam sells games as WoW-style subscriptions minus the monthly fee giving them more control than usual, and many of those games aren't made by Valve. Really, comparing a game to a DD service isn't very bright.

I do, and, unlike you, I also understand the legal rights a company has, the fraud that goes on and the means big companies have to go through to protect their own interests. And if the end, I use their product and I'm satisfied I won't go out of my way to complaint about hypotheticals that can't and won't happen.
Please tell me what law or loophole forces companies like Valve that run a shop, to run with EULA's that give them the right to take away a customer's game with no reason given. I know that if I buy a game on ebay and recieve it, ebay won't be able to take my game from me. I might get banned on the game's online component if I cheat or break some other online rule, but I still have the game and can play the singelplayer just fine, provided there is one. This has nothing to do with losing your license ("ownership") to a game.
Succesful companies are usually seen as the big devil, and the main reason for this is that people are idiots. And there's not much else to say about this absolute fact.
I don't think Valve are seen as a big devil by most people, so that point is moot. Valve is a successful and popular company, and I think they're not as "white" as they are usually portrayed.
I also know of idiots, usually goverment employees that have too much free time in their hands, fits the profile of one likely to join one of those anti steam organization.
Ridiculous. There is no anti Steam organization. There is an anti regional pricing group called 1€=/=$1, but most of those people love or used to love Steam until the regional pricing was introduced. The group is for Europeans protesting regional pricing on Steam, nothing else.


Of course they don't! Games are cheaper in China... if you have a western salary if you know what I mean. Blizzard also has a digital store, were you can buy and download their titles, and depending on were you live, it has a different price, this is why they're having a hard time with Chinese websites selling CD KEYS for cheap so you can later download the game via the digital store, with the CD KEY only.
I see. The European pricing on Steam is overpriced compared to retail products though, I can get the games much cheaper at retail... This wasn't the case before the regional pricing. To the contrary, UK got cheaper games than before, to match the retail prices. I guess regional pricing is okay if it's actually done to match retail, which € prices on Steam aren't.

Are you serious? For someone who cares so much about legal rights you sure know nothing about the law.
That's because I'm 16 and lack education about it. I'm willing to learn though.

And for the record, they do have that statement on the user agreement, with a different wording mind you,
I didn't know that, I was only told they have the right to ban you for suggestive usernames, so sorry
what's with legal documents being so verbose lol WHY DO DOCTORS HAVE SUCH BAD CALLIGRAPHY you know what grinds my gears

what's your facebook m8 do you
Eheheh. Cool... :confused: Are you making fun of me? That's uncalled for, I try to be as polite as I can when I write my posts... If you're trying to lighten up the discussion then sorry...



Edit:
I have nothing against old games. It's just that they have an extremely low amount of good ones.
Where are the Lemmings? Monkey Island? DOOM? SimCity? All very very good old games - and not listed. Why not?

bonz and miketh are right about the other stuff, but regarding bad selection of games, not everyone has the same taste in games that you do. There are many classics on GOG such as the ones I mentioned (and many unknown classics), but the GOG team always tries to get the rights for all of the old classics. For example, Monkey Island. A LucasArts title. The GOG team is trying hard to get LucasArts games on and the games are frequently requested by the community. Lemmings is a T17 IP, so there. I agree, Doom, Quake and the others deserve to be on GOG and I can only believe GOG staff tries to get a deal with iD to sell their old games. SimCity is an EA IP so I don't think it's likely it will come to GOG, but who knows.

Also, if you think Witcher was bad because of a lot of bugs and bad translation, then most of those problems have been fixed with updates. It's supposed to be a great game otherwise, if I'm to believe reviews... A bit like Dark Messiah, a buggy mess at release but all fixed with patches, and is a really fun game in the end.

This is all very good to read but what I want to know is whether or not there will be a PC release of Worms 2: Armageddon.

Srsly.

I don't ignore your points... I acknowledge Blizzard has the right to ban your WoW account for whatever. I just don't see what that has to do with Steam, which is a STORE where you BUY games and not a bloody MMO.

Like I said, services can be anything. WoW is a game. Steam is a games store. See the difference?

And SkyCable is a cable company, and Gamefly is a rental service, and a Restaurant is a Restaurant. Your argument makes no sense because there is no reason why it can't also be treated as a subscription. You might not like it but you cannot argue it's wrong because it's not.

Plus steam is a service by itself.


I trust Blizzard more because they don't run a shop that sells games at different price points depending on region.

No, you like Blizzard for that. I trust Valve because their service hasn't let me down and because their games are just fantastic and because they show real dedication as developers.
How can a company's pricing method increase/decrease your trust in them?

It means Steam is not a game unlike WoW, Steam sells games as WoW-style subscriptions minus the monthly fee giving them more control than usual, and many of those games aren't made by Valve. Really, comparing a game to a DD service isn't very bright.

Neither is complaining about something that hasn't happened and is not going to happen. Get it through your head: It's there for their protection, not because they are randomly going to take your games away from you and laugh manically while petting their cats.

Please tell me what law or loophole forces companies like Valve that run a shop, to run with EULA's that give them the right to take away a customer's game with no reason given. I know that if I buy a game on ebay and recieve it, ebay won't be able to take my game from me. I might get banned on the game's online component if I cheat or break some other online rule, but I still have the game and can play the singelplayer just fine, provided there is one. This has nothing to do with losing your license ("ownership") to a game.

Well, if a person is found to be renting his steam account to other people, so they can play steam games without purchasing them, Valve might want to revoke that person's access to their games. That's one example I can think of.


I don't think Valve are seen as a big devil by most people, so that point is moot. Valve is a successful and popular company, and I think they're not as "white" as they are usually portrayed.

The world is not black and white, big deal.


I see. The European pricing on Steam is overpriced compared to retail products though, I can get the games much cheaper at retail... This wasn't the case before the regional pricing. To the contrary, UK got cheaper games than before, to match the retail prices. I guess regional pricing is okay if it's actually done to match retail, which € prices on Steam aren't.

So get them at retail. Steam isn't forcing you to purchase trough it.

I don't ignore your points... I acknowledge Blizzard has the right to ban your WoW account for whatever. I just don't see what that has to do with Steam, which is a STORE where you BUY games and not a bloody MMO.that's exactly my point. we've explained over and over EXACTLY what the two have in common. you're simply not wanting to listen to our side of the argument, you just want to be right in your irrational hatred of steam.

BeefEater:


Swedish.

Dislikes Steam.


You and I are going to get along very well, boy. But where were you when I was waging my own crusade against Valve... :(

1. Please tell me what law or loophole forces companies like Valve that run a shop, to run with EULA's that give them the right to take away a customer's game with no reason given. I know that if I buy a game on ebay and recieve it, ebay won't be able to take my game from me. I might get banned on the game's online component if I cheat or break some other online rule, but I still have the game and can play the singelplayer just fine, provided there is one. This has nothing to do with losing your license ("ownership") to a game.

2. Ridiculous. There is no anti Steam organization. There is an anti regional pricing group called 1€=/=$1, but most of those people love or used to love Steam until the regional pricing was introduced. The group is for Europeans protesting regional pricing on Steam, nothing else.

3. bonz and miketh are right about the other stuff, but regarding bad selection of games, not everyone has the same taste in games that you do. There are many classics on GOG such as the ones I mentioned (and many unknown classics), but the GOG team always tries to get the rights for all of the old classics. For example, Monkey Island. A LucasArts title. The GOG team is trying hard to get LucasArts games on and the games are frequently requested by the community. Lemmings is a T17 IP, so there. I agree, Doom, Quake and the others deserve to be on GOG and I can only believe GOG staff tries to get a deal with iD to sell their old games. SimCity is an EA IP so I don't think it's likely it will come to GOG, but who knows.


1. You don't understand people. People will do ANYTHING to get money. You just don't know the crazy lawsuits that are going on, even right now, just to get money. They find a loophole. They get money. That's why you need good lawyers, so you don't lose out on a whole bunch of money. There's people that spend their time looking up EULA's and hiring lawyers. You just don't know...

2. For someone that's a member, you don't know much... they are an anti-steam group now. Pointing out every one of Steam's flaws, hoping Steam will do something about it. Not just the 1=1 thing.

3. You seem to know alot about GOG, O.o, a little TOO much. Where do you get this info? I think you work for them...not paid to advertise, but still work for them.

BeefEater:


Swedish.

Dislikes Steam.


You and I are going to get along very well, boy. But where were you when I was waging my own crusade against Valve... :(

You don't seem to be backing him very much, and you aren't joining into the argument...

You don't seem to be backing him very much, and you aren't joining into the argument...

Here, I found the last Steam thread for you: http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?p=596297#post596297

It's just another of the countless recurring discussions we have in this community, something to pass the time. Everyone, within statistical margin of error, will sooner or later switch to digital distribution and these ideological arguments won't affect that in the slightest, which is why I find it a bit pointless to have them more than once with people I don't know all that well. I suppose there's a slight chance this discussion could influence which digital distribution platforms future Worms games end up on, but I have little faith Team17 will start exploring options other than Steam this late on, after they've probably already made some some sort of deal with Valve.

Since writing my posts in that old thread, I've actually gone quite practical. I have a Steam account now, with which I've bought a few games, so I've had the pleasure of finding out for myself that their software has improved significantly since the early days, but also that each and every time they release an update for anything, something goes wrong with either its content or the system that was put in place to deliver it [this is an important factor with an often-updated, mostly online game like WA in my book]. So while my fear of Valve's sinister motives has diminished after experiencing their incompetence first-hand, my distaste for their philosophy of reducing game purchases and game communities to their lowest common denominator has only increased. The fact that their prices, from my point of view, have been increasing on top of everything just makes it that much harder to ignore those advertising it, despite how much I may like the idea of having all my games centralised, in one place.

If I had to pick one right now, I'd say Good Old Games actually suited a game like WA a lot better than Steam does, ideologically. In fact, their stated goals are remarkably like those community leaders on WA have stuck with in the past; the ones that ensured any sort of community is still associated with the game today. The fact that BeefEater is being insulted for believing in them only goes to show how little of that early WormNet atmosphere has remained alive around here on the official forum.

If Steam has become so huge and unmanageable that Valve needs to hire teams of lawyers for writing license agreements that sound ridiculous to most carbon-based life forms just to "protect themselves", they won't miss the few of us that care about something as silly as individual/consumer rights anyway. What's funny is that we get confronted about these opinions quite often, seemingly by people who have already made their choice and switched to using Steam, but are still seeking for some sort of reassurance by those who choose not to. Well, you won't be getting it from me because while the chances of something going terribly wrong as a result of a mass of people waving their rights away may truly be slim now, you have to see how with the growing popularity and complexity of such a business model, the chances of it happening eventually near 1. Amazon, with its recent Orwellian antics on the Kindle, comes to mind; I'm sure you've heard of that one (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/17/2138213/Amazon-Pulls-Purchased-E-Book-Copies-of-1984-and-Animal-Farm?art_pos=3).

And now I'm just rambling. Good night.

see? we were ripping into beefeater more for his inability to establish his point decently. we were poking holes in his arguments against steam because they were entirely invalid in the ways he was presenting them. personally, I was more trying to challenge his beliefs so that he would hate steam or not based on a good reason rather than just because he wants to.

you, however, have provided us with a well-thought argument against steam that makes perfect sense. you also proved that you are reasonable about your hatred for steam, in that you still use their service because you have to.

YOUR argument I can respect and even agree with to some extent. beef's was illogical and silly.

So get them at retail. Steam isn't forcing you to purchase trough it.

I haven't bought a game from Steam since the price change. I won't for the foreseeable future. But if W2A is a Steam exclusive I can't buy it through other outlets, can I?

that's exactly my point. we've explained over and over EXACTLY what the two have in common. you're simply not wanting to listen to our side of the argument, you just want to be right in your irrational hatred of steam.

The point about Steam games being nothing but subscriptions was nothing but a side argument. I shouldn't have kept the discussion going about this. I'm not wrong, but I don't want to keep arguing about it. Most of you would never believe Valve could intentionally or unintentionally take advantage of their rights, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
My dislike of Steam is not "irrational hatred".
I don't want W2A to be a Steam exclusive. That's all. If you don't think DRM is a big deal then more power to you. If you think overcharging certain regions is okay because they're "richer", more power to you. If you don't care about the rights you have to the games you've bought then more power to you.
All I want is W2A not to be exclusive to Steam. I won't make a fuss if it is, either. I just won't buy the game, sorry T17.

BeefEater:


Swedish.

Dislikes Steam.


You and I are going to get along very well, boy. But where were you when I was waging my own crusade against Valve... :(
I was probably somewhere praising Valve for their awesome games and DD service :o

1. You don't understand people. People will do ANYTHING to get money. You just don't know the crazy lawsuits that are going on, even right now, just to get money. They find a loophole. They get money. That's why you need good lawyers, so you don't lose out on a whole bunch of money. There's people that spend their time looking up EULA's and hiring lawyers. You just don't know...
I know there are those people. I just don't know why Steam games need to have more restrictions than retail equivalents of the same games, other than the part of the EULA that allows Valve to automatically update your games... Personally I think automatic updates should be optional as well.
2. For someone that's a member, you don't know much... they are an anti-steam group now. Pointing out every one of Steam's flaws, hoping Steam will do something about it. Not just the 1=1 thing.
Yeah, I know. That's not anti-Steam though, that's constructive criticism. It points out Steam flaws because, like you said, they hope Steam will do something about it, and because they want to inform people of the flaws to warn them, etc.
3. You seem to know alot about GOG, O.o, a little TOO much. Where do you get this info? I think you work for them...not paid to advertise, but still work for them.
Hahaha, no dude. I get that information from interviews and from the official forums (CDProjekt communicate with their fans through it frequently) :D I'm a member on their forums with the same name, and if you look me up there you will see that I have no GOG team status :)

It's just another of the countless recurring discussions we have in this community, something to pass the time. Everyone, within statistical margin of error, will sooner or later switch to digital distribution and these ideological arguments won't affect that in the slightest, which is why I find it a bit pointless to have them more than once with people I don't know all that well. I suppose there's a slight chance this discussion could influence which digital distribution platforms future Worms games end up on, but I have little faith Team17 will start exploring options other than Steam this late on, after they've probably already made some some sort of deal with Valve.
Well, you have a point there. Edit: I like digital distribution itself, though, so it's not that that I'm afraid of :) I'm not that attached to having physical copies and manuals can be bundled digitally, as well as extra content like soundtracks and wallpapers.
Since writing my posts in that old thread, I've actually gone quite practical. I have a Steam account now, with which I've bought a few games, so I've had the pleasure of finding out for myself that their software has improved significantly since the early days, but also that each and every time they release an update for anything, something goes wrong with either its content or the system that was put in place to deliver it [this is an important factor with an often-updated, mostly online game like WA in my book]. So while my fear of Valve's sinister motives has diminished after experiencing their incompetence first-hand, my distaste for their philosophy of reducing game purchases and game communities to their lowest common denominator has only increased. The fact that their prices, from my point of view, have been increasing on top of everything just makes it that much harder to ignore those advertising it, despite how much I may like the idea of having all my games centralised, in one place.
I agree, they're pretty incompetent. Team Fortress 2 updates, for instance always break something or make something worse when they're trying to fix stuff or when they add new content. I think HL2: DM is pretty broken as well in its current state, linux servers don't work well. Also, some games have stopped working permanently by Steam client updates (look below)
If I had to pick one right now, I'd say Good Old Games actually suited a game like WA a lot better than Steam does, ideologically. In fact, their stated goals are remarkably like those community leaders on WA have stuck with in the past; the ones that ensured any sort of community is still associated with the game today. The fact that BeefEater is being insulted for believing in them only goes to show how little of that early WormNet atmosphere has remained alive around here on the official forum.
Thanks :) robowurmz, just because you have a problem with me doesn't mean GOG is bad. You should give it a chance.

If Steam has become so huge and unmanageable that Valve needs to hire teams of lawyers for writing license agreements that sound ridiculous to most carbon-based life forms just to "protect themselves", they won't miss the few of us that care about something as silly as individual/consumer rights anyway. What's funny is that we get confronted about these opinions quite often, seemingly by people who have already made their choice and switched to using Steam, but are still seeking for some sort of reassurance by those who choose not to. Well, you won't be getting it from me because while the chances of something going terribly wrong as a result of a mass of people waving their rights away may truly be slim now, you have to see how with the growing popularity and complexity of such a business model, the chances of it happening eventually near 1. Amazon, with its recent Orwellian antics on the Kindle, comes to mind; I'm sure you've heard of that one (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/17/2138213/Amazon-Pulls-Purchased-E-Book-Copies-of-1984-and-Animal-Farm?art_pos=3).

And now I'm just rambling. Good night.
This is also correct, the bigger Steam gets the harder it becomes to manage by a "little" company like Valve. Their incompetence doesn't help either.
The amazon example of consequences of too many legal rights you linked to is exactly what I'm talking about. Some time ago I read on Shacknews about a game on Steam (Earth 2160) that was broken by a Steam client update (not an update of the game itself). Steam had been selling this broken game for months, and when Shack reported on it all they did was remove the game from the Store. (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58175)
The people who bought the game, of course could do nothing about about it. They didn't actually have any rights to the game in the first place.
see? we were ripping into beefeater more for his inability to establish his point decently. we were poking holes in his arguments against steam because they were entirely invalid in the ways he was presenting them. personally, I was more trying to challenge his beliefs so that he would hate steam or not based on a good reason rather than just because he wants to.
you, however, have provided us with a well-thought argument against steam that makes perfect sense. you also proved that you are reasonable about your hatred for steam, in that you still use their service because you have to.

YOUR argument I can respect and even agree with to some extent. beef's was illogical and silly.
You're making me look like a mindless Steam hater to further your argument.
I don't hate Steam "just because I want to", I do it for good reason. And I've already stated those reasons, and you don't think those reasons are good enough. You don't think the legal thing is a big deal because Valve wouldn't take advantage of their powers, but like KRD said, such a thing is more likely than you think. The Earth 2160 case is an example of that. You think DRM is awesome and works wonders, good for you. You think regional pricing is ok because some countries are poorer than others. Point taken, but some regions shouldn't be charged unreasonable amounts of money for no reason like Europe and Australia are.

If I'm bad at formulating my arguments then I apologize, but I'll be damned if the reasons I've stated aren't good ones.

Let go of the idea that I hate Steam because of old problems that have since been fixed and that I only look for reasons to justify my "irrational hatred". I used to love Steam and Valve until the regional pricing was introduced. I have all Valve games and I use Steam daily, because I have to since like 47 of my games are tied to Steam. I also use Steam Friends a lot to chat with friends.

I dont know what is the point of arguing over something which none of you can control, anyways latest bits of PC info..


Team17 on Facebook

"yes the PC version is coming. But we dont have any feature details at all i'm afraid, or when the release is planned."

"Chris, we are still formulating our PC release plans and will announce when we're ready."

Maybe this thread should be named "Yes, there might be a PC release of Worms 2 Armageddon" i'm surprised that they said it'll come later in the year, then say development hasn't even started.

Well, it might not come this year since they haven't started development (though it's a pretty small game), but they wouldn't say those things if they didn't plan to make a PC version :p I agree though, it's a very rough estimate considering they haven't started development.

I haven't bought a game from Steam since the price change. I won't for the foreseeable future. But if W2A is a Steam exclusive I can't buy it through other outlets, can I?
Then you can continue being ridiculous and not buy it, or realize that the cons aren't that bad and buy and enjoy the game.


I agree, they're pretty incompetent. Team Fortress 2 updates, for instance always break something or make something worse when they're trying to fix stuff or when they add new content. I think HL2: DM is pretty broken as well in its current state, linux servers don't work well.
I disagree there. They are one of the few companies out there who really push themselves to bring out quality games, and they are one of the few companies out there who are constantly updating their games based on community feedback. What they've done with TF2 is really admirable, considering most other companies would charge you extra even for adding horse armor to your game. Of course bugs/issues can(and will) occur, it's idiotic to expect perfection. However anything that surfaces gets fixed pretty shortly.



This is also correct, the bigger Steam gets the harder it becomes to manage by a "little" company like Valve. Their incompetence doesn't help either.
The amazon example of consequences of too many legal rights you linked to is exactly what I'm talking about. Some time ago I read on Shacknews about a game on Steam (Earth 2160) that was broken by a Steam client update (not an update of the game itself). Steam had been selling this broken game for months, and when Shack reported on it all they did was remove the game from the Store. (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58175)
The people who bought the game, of course could do nothing about about it. They didn't actually have any rights to the game in the first place.

Reading the comments on that same article, it appears the issue was fixed about 2 days later.


You're making me look like a mindless Steam hater to further your argument.
I don't hate Steam "just because I want to", I do it for good reason. And I've already stated those reasons, and you don't think those reasons are good enough. You don't think the legal thing is a big deal because Valve wouldn't take advantage of their powers, but like KRD said, such a thing is more likely than you think. The Earth 2160 case is an example of that. You think DRM is awesome and works wonders, good for you. You think regional pricing is ok because some countries are poorer than others. Point taken, but some regions shouldn't be charged unreasonable amounts of money for no reason like Europe and Australia are.

You are of course free to dislike anything you wish to dislike, but I do consider your reasons to be ridiculous. **** happens, big deal. Their service, however, works. It is usable. It is good. You need to be realistic and stop expecting everything to be catered to your unique personal perspective.

Lemmings is a T17 IP
I hate to correct you, but it isn't. It belongs to Sony at the moment.
Do Sony own the rights to the Original DOS version, I wonder...

Then you can continue being ridiculous and not buy it, or realize that the cons aren't that bad and buy and enjoy the game.
Maybe the cons, you know, really are that bad and the general public don't care because they're addicted to weekend deals and love Valve? Besides, I don't look forward to W2A enough to buy it through Steam.

I disagree there. They are one of the few companies out there who really push themselves to bring out quality games, and they are one of the few companies out there who are constantly updating their games based on community feedback. What they've done with TF2 is really admirable, considering most other companies would charge you extra even for adding horse armor to your game. Of course bugs/issues can(and will) occur, it's idiotic to expect perfection. However anything that surfaces gets fixed pretty shortly.
I've played a LOT of TF2 and I know when bugs surface, and when Valve takes a long time to fix them. It's a lot.
As a side note, the weapon unlocks mostly suck except for medic unlocks and jarate. They are detrimental to the gameplay.


Reading the comments on that same article, it appears the issue was fixed about 2 days later.
Ah. Never mind, then. There are games that have been permanently removed though, such as one of the Rainbow Six games. Edit: Besides, the only reason Earth got fixed was because a major media outlet reported on the issue.

You are of course free to dislike anything you wish to dislike, but I do consider your reasons to be ridiculous. **** happens, big deal. Their service, however, works. It is usable. It is good. You need to be realistic and stop expecting everything to be catered to your unique personal perspective.

Or maybe you should stop expecting everyone to have your biased opinion about Steam, and that not everyone wants their games tied to a program running in the background.
I hate to correct you, but it isn't. It belongs to Sony at the moment.
Do Sony own the rights to the Original DOS version, I wonder...
Sorry, I could have sworn T17 bought the IP when they made their own Lemmings games... My bad. But like you said, when IP's change owners it can be hard to know who has the right to sell the original games. GOG says they often have to go through such hoops to get old games on the service.

Maybe the cons, you know, really are that bad and the general public don't care because they're addicted to weekend deals and love Valve? Besides, I don't look forward to W2A enough to buy it through Steam.you talk about mtl's biased opinion later on in the post, but mtl hasn't shown ANY opinion on steam, except that it's a program that he uses and it does a decent job in the task it's meant to do. as far as I'm aware, he hasn't really stated WHAT he thinks of steam, he's just stated that he disagrees with you. however, this section of this post declares very clearly that you hate steam and that you believe everyone else should also hate steam and that anyone who disagrees with you is a sheep who only likes steam because they aren't intelligent enough to form a legitimate opinion on the matter.

clearly you are not being receptive to outside opinions. you just want to hate steam and will do so no matter what anyone says.

I've played a LOT of TF2 and I know when bugs surface, and when Valve takes a long time to fix them. It's a lot. name one. what serious, game-breaking TF2 bug hasn't been fixed nearly immediately? I play a lot of TF2 myself, as do many of the rest of us. I've yet to see a major bug myself and I've yet to hear any serious complaining. obviously the game is going to have minor issues, but I'm asking about major bugs here.
As a side note, the weapon unlocks mostly suck except for medic unlocks and jarate. They are detrimental to the gameplay. entirely subjective. most people I talk to quite like the updates, and none of them are in any way detrimental to gameplay.

Ah. Never mind, then. There are games that have been permanently removed though, such as one of the Rainbow Six games. Edit: Besides, the only reason Earth got fixed was because a major media outlet reported on the issue.see? even YOU admit your arguments are based on old information you haven't bothered to look further in to. you also display, once again, your desire to hate steam. when someone reports an issue, valve fixes it, and yet you've tried to make this sound like it's a bad thing.

Holy **** don't write useless novels here....holy ****!

We want Worms 2 Armageddon for PC NOW! Where is it? What causes the delay? When is it due for release? I am waiting, as everyone else....

Maybe the cons, you know, really are that bad and the general public don't care because they're addicted to weekend deals and love Valve? Besides, I don't look forward to W2A enough to buy it through Steam.

Your cons are nothing but "what if" situations. What if it did! What if it didn't! What if the world was made of pudding?

Frankly, the only thing that matters is if you want the game and if whatever final price point ends up in your region is worth paying for that game.

Holy **** don't write useless novels here....holy ****!

We want Worms 2 Armageddon for PC NOW! Where is it? What causes the delay? When is it due for release? I am waiting, as everyone else....

I ate the PC version for lunch. Sorry.

I would love to have a civilised discussion with those who disagree with me, if those people stop namecalling and accusing me for various things. Quite frankly I'm tired of being called

A toddler who can't get his mits on his mommy's credit card
A Steam hater who hates it because of issues that were solved long ago
An advertiser
One that has "desired baseless hatred" towards Steam and I look for reasons only to justify something I've made my mind up about before I had a reason
One that thinks everyone must hate Steam like I do

Honestly, what the **** is so hard to understand? I don't like Steam, I don't like it because the games I buy on it are tied to the program (something you still haven't addressed because you're busy moaning at me about that Steam EULA is so fair, and comparing WoW to Steam) and because I dislike unfair Euro pricing. I want games to be available through more than one distribution platform. Is it any of your business if I like Steam or not? I don't CARE if you love Steam or hate Steam. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because you keep accusing me of stuff and moaning that my reasons aren't good enough. NOT because I want you to have the same opinion as I do.

I get the feeling I'm being attacked and poked at because of your preconceived ideas of me being a typical "Steam hater" who lives under a rock, desperately looking for reasons to hate on it. I've already explained I'm not like that, but there's no point in arguing to deaf ears and mouths that scream "WITCH!". I become worse at arguing when I'm being called things and when you ignore that I call you out on your baseless attacks, too, because frankly, it's insulting and upsetting.

i only played worms world party

I would love to have a civilised discussion with those who disagree with me, if those people stop namecalling and accusing me for various things. Quite frankly I'm tired of being called

A toddler who can't get his mits on his mommy's credit card
A Steam hater who hates it because of issues that were solved long ago
An advertiser
One that has "desired baseless hatred" towards Steam and I look for reasons only to justify something I've made my mind up about before I had a reason
One that thinks everyone must hate Steam like I do

Honestly, what the **** is so hard to understand? I don't like Steam, I don't like it because the games I buy on it are tied to the program (something you still haven't addressed because you're busy moaning at me about that Steam EULA is so fair, and comparing WoW to Steam) and because I dislike unfair Euro pricing. I want games to be available through more than one distribution platform. Is it any of your business if I like Steam or not? I don't CARE if you love Steam or hate Steam. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because you keep accusing me of stuff and moaning that my reasons aren't good enough. NOT because I want you to have the same opinion as I do.

I get the feeling I'm being attacked and poked at because of your preconceived ideas of me being a typical "Steam hater" who lives under a rock, desperately looking for reasons to hate on it. I've already explained I'm not like that, but there's no point in arguing to deaf ears and mouths that scream "WITCH!". I become worse at arguing when I'm being called things and when you ignore that I call you out on your baseless attacks, too, because frankly, it's insulting and upsetting.

I didn't call you any of those things, I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed. So what if your games are tied to a program. If they do or if they don't it's the same thing, they are still functional. It's not like they're cheating you on it or anything, it's how it works, and it works well. It's like hating the ocean for being wet.

Regional pricing is their choice, much like a restaurant can charge you twice for a glass of soda than what you would pay on a grocery store or a vending machine. They have their reasons, whatever they are(and I consider it foolish to assume it's just corporate greed). If you feel a game is too expensive, don't buy it. In the end, if people really can't afford this prices they will eventually change.

Honestly, what the **** is so hard to understand? I don't like Steam, I don't like it because the games I buy on it are tied to the program (something you still haven't addressed because you're busy moaning at me about that Steam EULA is so fair, and comparing WoW to Steam) and because I dislike unfair Euro pricing. I want games to be available through more than one distribution platform. if those are your only 2 complaints, then stop pointing out other petty flaws in the steam platform.

and if you hate steam because it's required to run in the background in order to play their games, then you hate the vast majority of other PC games as well. Steam is the most visual, but that's because they've tried to take their system and make it more useful. Games for Windows Live has just as much tied to the games as steam does, they just don't want you to realize it, and so it runs in the background. EA games all have various background applications running as well, and a number of them even harvest information from your computer without directly mentioning said actions. EA's is by far the worst system if you're worried about background applications, because they actively search for and transmit information from your computer off to EA, and yet you're not complaining about them, you're only complaining about Steam.

if your argument was legitimate, you'd have mentioned some of these other systems yourself. instead, you only scream about how horrible steam is.

I get the feeling I'm being attacked and poked at because of your preconceived ideas of me being a typical "Steam hater" who lives under a rock, desperately looking for reasons to hate on it. I've already explained I'm not like thatyes, you keep SAYING that you're not like that, but every argument you've come up with thus far is petty and flawed. you keep insisting that you're a sensible person who simply dislikes steam because of only 2 reasons, and yet any time any reason could be found to point out a flaw in steam, you jump all over that flaw and start screaming "SEE?! SEE?! I WAS RIGHT! STEAM IS HORRIBLE!". you can SAY whatever you like, but your every action and argument thus far in this discussion has proven that you hate steam, that you WANT to hate steam, and that you refuse to listen to anyone who points out either of these things.

Honestly, what the **** is so hard to understand? I don't like Steam.

Dont worry man....i ****** hate steam....i just use it only when there is no other option (Orangebox,audiosurf,etc)...so be free to say that u hate it and just ignore those ppl who insult u with childish arguments.

Taking internet wars to an all new level! Can we come back on topic now?

Taking internet wars to an all new level! Can we come back on topic now?

OK.....I heard somewhere that W2A is comming for PC, is it true? xD

Taking internet wars to an all new level! Can we come back on topic now?what, you mean like we were on the first post?

seriously, this whole thread has been pointless.

welcome to the team17 forum :p

I know there are those people. I just don't know why Steam games need to have more restrictions than retail equivalents of the same games...

Go ask your lawyer.


Edit: Besides, the only reason Earth got fixed was because a major media outlet reported on the issue.

That's your personal opinion / opinion of others.

what, you mean like we were on the first post?
Not even the first post. That one was just some rambling about W2:A coming out on PC, but so far nobody's said it would be. Its so hard to get a straight-forward honest answer around here.

I like Steam so far.
I haven't been there in the beginning when it still had problems.
And I'll be the first person to download cracked/pirated versions of all my Steam games should Valve indeed go bankrupt and don't release non-Steam patches or somehow lock me out of my games.

Anyway, as Vader said recently, get back on topic!
Will there be a PC version of W2:A?
Will it have titanic, Leo-and-Kate-having-sex-in-a-car steamed Windows?
take your games away from you and laugh manically while petting their cats.
Plus the pinky-finger-corner-of-the-mouth antic.

Plus the pinky-finger-corner-of-the-mouth antic.yes, but it's rather hard to do both things at once. you usually just end up looking silly.

Some people hate Steam. For good reasons.

Some people like Steam. For good reasons.

Argument over.

Worms 2: Armageddon for PC and Mac! Discuss.

Some people hate Steam. For good reasons.

Some people like Steam. For good reasons.

Argument over.

Worms 2: Armageddon for PC and Mac! Discuss.

"The thing I hate about an argument is that it always interrupts a discussion."

Team 17 said that they are formulating PC release plans and will let us know when ready:), also heres hoping for a new kind of a ranking system similar to the COD 4 ranking system!

also heres hoping for a new kind of a ranking system similar to the COD 4 ranking system!that's an extremely random comparison. are you saying you'd want certain weapons to be locked to those who haven't attained a specific rank online? cause that seems rather annoying in a game like worms.

Or do you mean a system whereby the one who plays the most games gets the highest rank? Because that's hardly fair.


Or did CoD4 have an additional ranking system in addition to its RPG system?

that's an extremely random comparison. are you saying you'd want certain weapons to be locked to those who haven't attained a specific rank online? cause that seems rather annoying in a game like worms.

Or do you mean a system whereby the one who plays the most games gets the highest rank? Because that's hardly fair.


Or did CoD4 have an additional ranking system in addition to its RPG system?

No, i referred COD 4 ranking system because it is very simple, just use levels to denote ranks, level 1 for a Private and so on, it encourages newer players and does not scare them away, there should be leaderboards based on the win/loss ration and noting else, i will elaborate further and think of how a new ranking system that could work for Worms but right now i am going to bed :)

No, i referred COD 4 ranking system because it is very simple, just use levels to denote ranks, level 1 for a Private and so on, it encourages newer players and does not scare them away, there should be leaderboards based on the win/loss ration and noting else, i will elaborate further and think of how a new ranking system that could work for Worms but right now i am going to bed :)I disagree here, actually. I think worms would do best with a KDR-based ranking. you win more than you lose: you get a good rank. you win significantly more than you lose, you get an even better rank. perhaps have the KDRs compare to everyone else's and set up a ranking system based on who has the best KDR of all.

not perfect, but I think it'd get the point across better than what you described, IMO. granted, your suggestion combined with an option to determine KDR-based rank would work just fine all around, so I guess that could work as well. I just think that in a worms game a more in-depth ranking would be better.

Dont worry man....i ****** hate steam....i just use it only when there is no other option (Orangebox,audiosurf,etc)...so be free to say that u hate it and just ignore those ppl who insult u with childish arguments.

EXACTLY. To be honest, I only used Steam once and uninstalled it because I didn't like it taking up my startup resources, BUT, if the games on there is cheaper, or that is the only way I can get a game I want, OF COURSE I'll install it again and use it for those games, saving money is great! But he is boycotting the service all together, even stating he won't buy worms if steam is the only place he can get it. That's just stupid, i guess you aren't a real worms fan. Ok, they charge more for the game in EU, life is unfair. But, if that's the only way you can get a game, deal with it, if the game is indeed worth the money. Steam does not abuse their power and take your games away from you, so you can go crying to your mommy, you have 47 games on their, have they ever done it to any of those? So deal with it. IF the game is worth it. 1 game is not gonna hurt. Why boycott steam?

I already told you all that I use Steam daily and still play the games I have on Steam (about 50 of them). I just don't want to buy any more games that will be tied to the program. And no, not wanting games to be tied to a program for no reason is not foolishness and if everything in life was okay so long as "it works" we wouldn't progress and improve our technology. I also won't accept being charged more than US for the reason that "life is unfair".
I buy Worms games when they are good. If W2A is as simplified and bug ridden as the XBLA version has turned out to be, I don't think it's worth buying if I have to use Steam to play it. I already have the original Armageddon, so... I might change my mind if they also use DD platforms that give their users more freedom, such as not being tied to the program (Impulse for example)

And akuryou, if you don't trust me when I tell you that I used to love Steam and that I still use it a lot, and that I don't intend to change your opinion about Steam, then I can honestly do nothing else than I already have to convince you. I am arguing for my cause because you wanted me to, remember? I don't condemn anyone for liking Steam and I don't think they're sheep. My dislike for Steam is not blind hatred and I haven't always disliked Steam. Call me witch all you like.

miketh, you ridicule yourself more than me by telling me to go cry to mommy and "deal with it". I thought you were a cool, open minded guy at first, but I guess I was wrong. By the way, I don't think you have the right to tell me "so what" and "life is unfair" when you're not affected by the European prices.

Now, since you know nothing about me, could you stop telling me who I am and let's leave this discussion behind? Peace? At the very least, stop focusing on me instead of focusing on the points I bring up. If you find something wrong with my arguments then tell me how I'm wrong instead of first telling me I'm wrong, then stomping me. Just say what's wrong and leave the ad hominem stuff out of the discussion, because it's childish.

I don't buy any of this moral bull****.

If W2A is as simplified and bug ridden as the XBLA version has turned out to be, I don't think it's worth buying if I have to use Steam to play it. I already have the original Armageddon, so... I might change my mind if they also use DD platforms that give their users more freedom, such as not being tied to the program (Impulse for example)


What you're saying here, is that a game you wouldn't normally buy, based solely on said game's attributes you would consider buying based solely on the fact it is aviable on DD or Impulse. Basically, you'd be willing to spend money on two companies to support them exclusively with no relevance to the game you're buying, supposedly, because you hate Steam this much you're willing to give free money to the opposition.
You're an ill minded sick person.

I'd love to punch your face in the name of sanity.

A gut feeling tells me I shouldn't respond to that rant.
1. Explain "moral bull****" please.
2. "What I'm saying here" is nothing like what you just wrote. You twist my words because you're looking for a fight.
3. DD is short for Digital Distribution. Examples of DD are Steam, Impulse, GOG, greenhouse, D2D, GamersGate...
4. I don't support companies exclusively.
5. I don't buy games from Steam's opposition because I hate Steam.
6. You're an asshole.
7. You're incapable of civil discussion.
8. Get a life.

A gut feeling tells me I shouldn't respond to that rant.
1. Explain "moral bull****" please.
2. "What I'm saying here" is nothing like what you just wrote. You twist my words because you're looking for a fight.
3. DD is short for Digital Distribution. Examples of DD are Steam, Impulse, GOG, greenhouse, D2D, GamersGate...
4. I don't support companies exclusively.
5. I don't buy games from Steam's opposition because I hate Steam.
6. You're an asshole.
7. You're incapable of civil discussion.
8. Get a life.

Ignoring the overwhelming irony in points 6, 7 and 8 I will proceed to explain to you what you just said, just because you're unable to comprehend your own writting.

And no, not wanting games to be tied to a program for no reason is not foolishness and if everything in life was okay so long as "it works" we wouldn't progress and improve our technolog

This my friend, is moral bull**** of the highest calibre.You expect to rise an army of people who like you, stop supporting steam hoping it dies, or is forced to improve. Old technique. You're missing the point though, and it's that Steam is a great service, that is constantly evolving, constantly giving us quality service and constantly improving.

So drop this paladin bull**** son

Yes, wanting games to not be tied to a program for no reason is moral bull**** of highest caliber, and I'm recruiting an army of Steam haters... :rolleyes: Bringing issues with a popular service to attention is an old technique, and I don't know that Steam has upsides and that it's an improving service like all others. Speaking of bull****...

You're an ill minded sick person.

I'd love to punch your face in the name of sanity.

And this obviously isn't being an asshole, it's very supportive of civil discussion and it shows you have a life.
Edit: You're looking for a flame war, well you won't get it because I'll stop posting in this thread from now on. Feel free to rant about how evil and sick minded I am.
Steam plays big money for exclusivity. Or in case of in-house games, it raises big money via digital distribution that goes towards development costs. This big money, is what allows games to become bigger, louder and sexier.
Steam will always pay more for this exclusivity than its competitors because it's more succesful. This allows them to get away with some things that don't appear to be ideal, like 1$=1€, however, the alternative to this is communism and we don't want that. Learn to live with the flaws of democracy and capitalism, become a better man.
Edit: One last thing, by being tied to a program I mean having to run Steam to play games I've bought on Steam. So you've got that interpreted all wrong as well, big surprise.

Yes, wanting games to not be tied to a program for no reason

Steam plays big money for exclusivity. Or in case of in-house games, it raises big money via digital distribution that goes towards development costs. This big money, is what allows games to become bigger, louder and sexier.
Steam will always pay more for this exclusivity than its competitors because it's more succesful. This allows them to get away with some things that don't appear to be ideal, like 1$=1€, however, the alternative to this is communism and we don't want that. Learn to live with the flaws of democracy and capitalism, become a better man.



And this obviously isn't being an asshole, it's very supportive of civil discussion and it shows you have a life.

What's the connection about being stupid yet civil in the internet and having a life?

BeefEater, the show's over. You are, in fact, the one who brought Steam back up after the conversation was over. I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, though you're wording it absolutely horribly. Just stop beating this dead horse, kay?

I just don't want to buy any more games that will be tied to the program. And no, not wanting games to be tied to a program for no reason is not foolishness and if everything in life was okay so long as "it works" we wouldn't progress and improve our technology.

That in there is stupid argumenting at it's worst. Steam is one of the services that has really pushed DD forward in the past few years, and as Yakuza said it's a service that will constantly evolve and improve, and considering Valve's usual approach, it will evolve around community feedback. Just because a few of their choices affect you doesn't mean it's a bad service, and going out of your way to stop supporting a service that can still offer you what you need is in no way going to help anyone, not even yourself.

I buy Worms games when they are good. If W2A is as simplified and bug ridden as the XBLA version has turned out to be, I don't think it's worth buying if I have to use Steam to play it. I already have the original Armageddon, so... I might change my mind if they also use DD platforms that give their users more freedom, such as not being tied to the program (Impulse for example)

See, that's a dumb thing. Having a game tied to another program to run makes no difference at all. A game might be running several other processes in the background and you probably wouldn't even notice it. What matters is whether the game runs well or not, anything else is just being a petty fool.

By the way, I don't think you have the right to tell me "so what" and "life is unfair" when you're not affected by the European prices.

Yes because regional prices is the worst thing to come to the modern world since the second world war right? I might not have to deal with steam's oh-so-unfair regional prices, but I have to deal with a whole lot of other **** because my country sucks. So yeah, life's unfair, deal with it.

it shows you have a life.


And yet, as far as anyone can tell, you spend most of your life arguing with cynical people on the internet about games distribution.

Clearly point 8 on your list applies to you too.

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT CLAIM TO HAVE SUCH SOCIAL STANDING AS TO AMOUNT TO A "LIFE" IN THIS CONTEXT AND NEITHER DO I INTEND TO PUT FORWARD THE ASSUMPTION AS SUCH.

Edit: One last thing, by being tied to a program I mean having to run Steam to play games I've bought on Steam. So you've got that interpreted all wrong as well, big surprise.no, YOU'RE not interpreting it right. his point is that being tied to steam means that valve makes more money off of their games because they can control their exclusive rights to said games. this ability allows them to continue to make high-budget games that are well known in the gamer communities as being some of the best games ever made. people put up with steam because the quality of games available from valve are so insanely high, and the quality is so high because they have the ability to make more money off of their games due to their steam service.

it's a flaw of the system, as yakuza said, because it requires that you run steam in order to play the games. however, it's a flaw that's worth putting up with because the quality of the games is so high. if you'd stop complaining about steam so much, you'd realize that even YOU agree with these points. I know this because you use steam as well.

BeefEater, the show's over. You are, in fact, the one who brought Steam back up after the conversation was over. I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, though you're wording it absolutely horribly. Just stop beating this dead horse, kay?i think we ALL agree that being required to run steam is a mild annoyance. however, beef's just being retarded and going on huge flame wars against steam with little to no reasoning behind said rants. that's the only reason this argument is happening. god knows I'm sure we'd all prefer it if steam wasn't a requirement to play steam games, the rest of us just have the ability to see that the ends justify the means here.

Please stop with all this nonsense already and go troll somewhere else, this thread needs suggestions and requests not your stupid arguements which are going to serve no purpose.

Please stop with all this nonsense already and go troll somewhere else, this thread needs suggestions and requests not your stupid arguements which are going to serve no purpose.arguments are not trolling. what you just did was trolling.

we're having a discussion. this is a forum made for such things. this thread was pointless to begin with, it now serves as a forum (yay ironic word choice) for a discussion about steam.

quit complaining. if you don't want to hear anymore, unsubscribe.

Please stop with all this nonsense already and go troll somewhere else, this thread needs suggestions and requests not your stupid arguements which are going to serve no purpose.

This thread didn't need anything past the first post. Go away.

quit complaining. if you don't want to hear anymore, unsubscribe.

Or block the user if possible (hiding there posts)

Please Team 17 give us some news on the PC version please please=(

Please Team 17 give us some news on the PC version please please=(

I think they will wait until they have fixed the Xbox 360 version 1st m8 before any announcement. Otherwise it really would add fuel to the flames for them still not having it patched and working yet on 360 proper.

I think they will wait until they have fixed the Xbox 360 version 1st m8 before any announcement. Otherwise it really would add fuel to the flames for them still not having it patched and working yet on 360 proper.

Exactly. Team17 aren't stupid - why release the PC game and then have to develop a patch for multiple systems unnecessarily? They'll make sure the Xbox 360 release is solid, and then work on a PC version based on the updated code.

Be patient - I have no doubt they'll release an amazing game.

Be patient - I have no doubt they'll release an amazing game.
So that i can't wait to see it :).

So that i can't wait to see it :).

I wouldn't expect anything other than a direct port with perhaps a different multiplayer plataform.

I did not see Xbox game ;).

I wouldn't expect anything other than a direct port with perhaps a different multiplayer plataform.

PC version will surely have more weapons and features than the xbox one, i am also hoping for MP stats:)

PC version will surely have more weapons and features than the xbox one, i am also hoping for MP stats:)

Did you not read the title of this thread? Team17 are not developing an new Worms for PC, they are bringing Worms 2: Armageddon to PC.

Did you not read the title of this thread? Team17 are not developing an new Worms for PC, they are bringing Worms 2: Armageddon to PC.

On facebook, Team 17 said PC title will be called Worms Armageddon decade edition, and no where has it been mentioned that Team 17 will just copy paste the console game over to the PC, people like to call it W:2A because it is easier to pronounce, and this thread was not started by Team 17.

On facebook, Team 17 said PC title will be called Worms Armageddon decade edition, and no where has it been mentioned that Team 17 will just copy paste the console game over to the PC, people like to call it W:2A because it is easier to pronounce, and this thread was not started by Team 17.

There was a response on facebook that was quoted here somewhere... ah there you go.

Dude, it was quoted by YOU (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=698071&postcount=8).

Question--"One question Team 17, is the PC version being made by a dedicated team? We dont want a port from xbox, we want it like the orignal Armageddon made from scratch for the PC!"

Team 17..
"Ricky, it'll be adapted for PC. The PC market is difficult these days due to MASSIVE levels of piracy so we simply can't take the risk of ploughing extensive resources into a bespoke PC edition, it simply doesn't make sense. The PC version (released via Steam) will be good value and play great. We may also look at re-releasing the original (with updates) via Steam at some point, as well as other games in the series."

That pretty much spells "Straight port".

That pretty much spells "Straight port".

this turned my grin upside down :(

There was a response on facebook that was quoted here somewhere... ah there you go.

Dude, it was quoted by YOU (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=698071&postcount=8).



That pretty much spells "Straight port".

We will have to wait and see. What do you think about leaderboards/ stats for the MP, would they be in?

There are bound to be some minor changes appropriate for a PC version, but I wouldn't expect any changes in terms of gameplay or weapons, nor any significant changes in terms of customization.

There are bound to be some minor changes appropriate for a PC version, but I wouldn't expect any changes in terms of gameplay or weapons, nor any significant changes in terms of customization.

Just one think which i badly would want to have is stats for the Multi Player, if not very indepth then just simple stuff like worms killed/died, games won/lost playing hours clocked, it would be sweeet!

Will it be available on Impulse?

Will it be available on Impulse?

What is impulse?

What is impulse?

Impulse (http://impulsedriven.com/)

It's Stardocks download platform that they want to defeat Steam with. Impulse also got the best licensing in that you got more rights then you got with steam. It doesn't have to be running either.

They don't got many smashhits there but lots of other games'n'apps.

Steam was also small in the beginning and this platform looks the most promising.

I just hope they add map editor.....if they relase a $10 worms game for PC without a map editor, i will come to the conclusion that Team17 is going insane.

I dont understand.....Worms for example is exactly the game I would never illegaly download! It's made for online matches!!! And you can't play on regular online servers if you don't buy it! Well atleast when there is a reasonable protection!

I dont understand.....Worms for example is exactly the game I would never illegaly download!

I agree but for another reason. I can't say this about the 3d ones...but I wouldn't download wa because it's worth every penny in quality and replay value. I'd much rather t17 give a bit of help to cs and dc for a while and re-release wa with the stuff they are making than get a less-customizable port for a game.

I just hope they add map editor.....if they relase a $10 worms game for PC without a map editor, i will come to the conclusion that Team17 is going insane.This.

If they don't we can always make one for ourselves. I mean content management has been getting easier over the years, and the types of files that they are stored on are easier to read and modify.

Still, I agree. Make map editor or become insane.

Impulse (http://impulsedriven.com/)

It's Stardocks download platform that they want to defeat Steam with. Impulse also got the best licensing in that you got more rights then you got with steam. It doesn't have to be running either.

They don't got many smashhits there but lots of other games'n'apps.

Steam was also small in the beginning and this platform looks the most promising.

Looks good, we will have to wait and see what team 17 decide, the problem with this though is that it is not as well known as Steam

If Steam Exclusive then count me out.

If Steam Exclusive then count me out.

Ok let me erase you from my hand crafted list of potential new worms players

If Steam Exclusive then count me out.

well, i am thinking of buyin a xbox 360 and playin Worms on it :D..what you think??

If Steam Exclusive then count me out.
Of course its not Steam exclusive.


Its out on XBLA too, after all!

I'm still excited over this. It's like the anticipation of Christmas.

I totally agree with Xen, what was the last release date that Team 17 had for the PC platform for any game?

I totally agree with Xen, what was the last release date that Team 17 had for the PC platform for any game?

Leisure Suit Larry: Box Office Bust
Windows
EU March 27, 2009
NA March 31, 2009
AUS TBA 2009
But I like to think that this game didn't exist so Worms 4: Mayhem
Windows
EU September 29, 2005
NA October 4, 2005

I'm still excited over this. It's like the anticipation of Christmas.

11-11 is my birthday, nothing better than Worms Armageddon gift to myself :D incomiiiiiing

Leisure Suit Larry: Box Office Bust
Windows
EU March 27, 2009
NA March 31, 2009
AUS TBA 2009
But I like to think that this game didn't exist so Worms 4: Mayhem
Windows
EU September 29, 2005
NA October 4, 2005

Wow. Well I wouldn't count the larry games either.

4 years since a PC worms release? We should all be exited.

Of course its not Steam exclusive.


Its out on XBLA too, after all!

Hmmm, digitally distributed version for like $50 or whatever or a hard copy for $400+... (I own no xbox360)

I'm either gonna skip it if I can't get a hard copy of the game for PC Or eventually one day get a xbox360. Do xbox360's still support xbox games? is that feature still being updated?

Hmmm, digitally distributed version for like $50 or whatever or a hard copy for $400+... (I own no xbox360)

$50? Given the XBLA version is only $10, I don't think the PC version will differ that much in price. I'm thinking $12-$14 tops.

As for 360 BC, it doesn't support all games, but supports quite a lot of them. Best thing you can do is check a list of compatible games for any games you have/plan to get.

I'm mostly leaning towards a xbox360 because it offers the largest library of games to me as well as improved versions of multi-platform ps2 titles.

a guess of the system requirements on PC?? anyone?

well, i am thinking of buyin a xbox 360 and playin Worms on it :D..what you think??

Unless you have any other games you plan on getting, no.

Unless you have any other games you plan on getting, no.

I may get soem other games too, i mean its great with all the leaderboards and ranks on xbox 360 which i dont think we will get on the PC..

a guess of the system requirements on PC?? anyone?

im guessin you will need a very hardcore gaming PC to run worms armageddon decade :P

We should all be exited.

*Opens door, leaves room*

Oh wait.

im guessin you will need a very hardcore gaming PC to run worms armageddon decade :P

OMG, not again :eek:!!! are you sure? i mean, it's almost all 2D, maybe it has lots of shaders here and there and 3d particle explosions but nothing, at first sight, to heavy. It's obviously more advanced than Worms Blast because the HD, but nothing else. Worms Blast was made for the Nintendo GameCube, but even a very low-end PC can run it...

My machine is really showing its age and i'm not able to run new games, that's not big deal for me because i dont play to much, in fact I'm a very retro gamer (DOOM2, Quake 3, WA ;)...), but a new 2d worms game for the PC is something that no living entity should miss. Taking into account the 2D mainstream of the game, am hoping for a wide user support :)...

my specs:
Pentium 4 3.06 Ghz
Geforce 6200 256 MB
2 Gb RAM
256 HD Space (60 free :P)

http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WormsWeaponsClear4.PNG

God if its a straight port then i dont expect it to live to the expectation of worms Armageddons legacy :/

well if you do want a straight port then ATLEAST include all of the weapons from worms armageddon.

OMG!! no flamethrower??!! my WA team first weapon choise!!! thats a real letdown sir :mad:

OMG!! no flamethrower??!! my WA team first weapon choise!!! thats a real letdown sir :mad:

Please lads dont take things at face value, consider this,

1-Dont compare console game to PC game
2-SOme weapons may be added later via DLC
3-and last but most important i feel is that Team 17 has chosen the best mix of weapons and left out the unnecessary weapons to attain maximum level of strategy possible

You can't just keep on adding weapons for the sake of it, tactical and strategical factors cannot be compromised because that is what Worms is, a strategy game!

3-and last but most important i feel is that Team 17 has chosen the best mix of weapons and left out the unnecessary weapons to attain maximum level of strategy possible

You can't just keep on adding weapons for the sake of it, tactical and strategical factors cannot be compromised because that is what Worms is, a strategy game!wow, look. a Team17 fanboy. never thought I'd see one...

seriously. SOME of those weapons are ok to get rid of. homing pigeon, minigun, mail/mole strikes, and various others. those are basically all repeats of other weapons that we don't necessarily need to have.

however, things like invisibility, the battle axe, scales of justice, the long bow, and many others are weapons of major tactical difference from any other weapons available, and removing them takes away from the game. I'll be rather upset if this new game doesn't have at least as many weapons as W:A the original.

though what both of you need to keep in mind is that there ARE new weapons being implemented as well. so that list isn't necessarily accurate.

Weapons as DLC? kinda massively unfair towards people that haven't bought the weapons don't you think?

Weapons as DLC? kinda massively unfair towards people that haven't bought the weapons don't you think?

Yeah man, because DLC cannot be a patch that everyone has to download eh?

Yeah man, because DLC cannot be a patch that everyone has to download eh?FREE patches?! BLASPHEMY! :eek:

DLC != patch.

Some games' patches come with additional content, yes, but usually DLC is a separate pack which must be downloaded by the user.

If you have the 80p or whatever it costs to buy a super shotgun then you deserve that ability.

If, say, I bought the Aqua Sheep, it should be available for use by all players if I host the game. It should be like W:A in that regard.

If you're too cheap to cough up the 80p then you simply can't host schemes (local or online) with said weapon in.

Obvsly.

DLC != patch.

Some games' patches come with additional content, yes, but usually DLC is a separate pack which must be downloaded by the user.

If you have the 80p or whatever it costs to buy a super shotgun then you deserve that ability.

If, say, I bought the Aqua Sheep, it should be available for use by all players if I host the game. It should be like W:A in that regard.

If you're too cheap to cough up the 80p then you simply can't host schemes (local or online) with said weapon in.

Obvsly.point is, the two are interchangeable in the context earlier. you can offer the DLC as a patch or the patch as DLC. the word used by i<3worms:) was DLC, but you could just as easily offer it as a patch instead. or offer a combination of both, perhaps, with your idea used for the actual paid-for DLC.

*Opens door, leaves room*

Oh wait.Oops.

"Please leave the premises."

im guessin you will need a very hardcore gaming PC to run worms armageddon decade :PIf you can run any 3D game right now, I mean right now. You can run any 2D worms game.

2D requires so much less memory to run. It does have 3D backgrounds, but they aren't really interactive enough to be considered.

point is, the two are interchangeable in the context earlier. you can offer the DLC as a patch or the patch as DLC. the word used by i<3worms:) was DLC, but you could just as easily offer it as a patch instead. or offer a combination of both, perhaps, with your idea used for the actual paid-for DLC.

So me helping to clarify what's what is beside the point how?

Oops.

"Please leave the premises."

If you can run any 3D game right now, I mean right now. You can run any 2D worms game.

2D requires so much less memory to run. It does have 3D backgrounds, but they aren't really interactive enough to be considered.

Large W:A maps can require several 100's or even gigabytes of memory. Determining where to place a crate on large maps can be very taxing of the cpu...

I really think they must add all the missing utilities.
*Invisibility:i guess its not really hard to implement
*freeze: just turning worms into a "graveworm" status for 1 turn.
*SelectWorm: not easy to add but its necessary
*Low Gravity: not easy to add but necessary.

W2A: have the same problem of all the New Worms games......missing utilities.
Talking about the weapons missing....im agree with many of them (too repetitive) but sheepstrike,minestrike and battleaxe

So me helping to clarify what's what is beside the point how?

DLC in my world (my rules) means downloadable content, since as far as I'm concerned you don't lay eggs that contain patches then... where was I

DLC in my world (my rules) means downloadable content, since as far as I'm concerned you don't lay eggs that contain patches then... where was I

It does mean that. Patches don't necessarily deliver content, per sé, they improve functionality. For example, a patch to Worms:PSN would fix the online bugs whereas a DLC pack would add new hats.

Maybe I'm missing the point altogether here; my purpose was to help clarify.

W2A will be comming in Steam.......so that means it will be in constant updating like most of the other steam games (?)

W2A will be comming in Steam.......so that means it will be in constant updating like most of the other steam games (?)

It will be selling for cheaper than most of those Steam games that are updated all the time and Team17 rarely releases more than 2 patches for any of their games (Deadcode/CyberShadow patches excluded). It will all depend on sales but even the high selling Worms XBLA still only got two title updates and it's more than 2 years old now. I guess they won't have to deal with Microsoft every time they want to release an update for the PC version, so that should make it easier.

It does mean that. Patches don't necessarily deliver content, per sé, they improve functionality. For example, a patch to Worms:PSN would fix the online bugs whereas a DLC pack would add new hats.

Maybe I'm missing the point altogether here; my purpose was to help clarify.I think the whole thing is too subjective to clarify. TF2 patches in more hats all the time, but it's still patches.

Hats don't change the gameplay at all so it's perfectly fine to charge money for them and restrict them to only people that payed.

Paying for hats could be a vnice metod to win money despite of the illegal copies of the game.....but i think the PC ver will be exactly the same as the Xbox without any extra features.
Lets hope im wrong....

It does mean that. Patches don't necessarily deliver content, per sé, they improve functionality. For example, a patch to Worms:PSN would fix the online bugs whereas a DLC pack would add new hats.

Maybe I'm missing the point altogether here; my purpose was to help clarify.

Think of it this way. If the DLC pack was optional, how would other players know what on earth is being used, and not crash from invalid/missing content in their game directory? Killing Floor for example recently added a patch that includes extra weapons along with fixes. This is a patch+DLC combo, and makes the most sense for free DLC. Just give it to everyone so there's no problems to deal with. Option DLC would require them to include a patch anyway so that users without the weapons would still be able to see other players use them.

Large W:A maps can require several 100's or even gigabytes of memory. Determining where to place a crate on large maps can be very taxing of the cpu...Definitely, but I don't think it will be bad at all.

I'm pretty sure Team 17 won't have huge maps, big enough to make a difference. Maybe modders and map-makers will have huge maps though, we'll just have to see what happens.

DLC does nothing but adds to the game, a patch fixes/alters the game code. Also, patches are mostly required, to play online.

Large W:A maps can require several 100's or even gigabytes of memory. Determining where to place a crate on large maps can be very taxing of the cpu...

I can't help but think that's only because the code isn't optimized for huge maps though, the original WA code was written and tested for small maps.

I cannot imagine a 3.0GhZ processor would lagg a pc just to create a random x and y parameter and spawn an item there. I mean, seriously, how long does it take a computer to create 2 random digits between 0 and 100 000, like 0.000001 of a second?

=> I'm sure it's a bit more complicated as that though, since u have to take into account the map and other items like worms, but still, I think my point stands...

Please lads dont take things at face value, consider this,

1-Dont compare console game to PC game
2-SOme weapons may be added later via DLC
3-and last but most important i feel is that Team 17 has chosen the best mix of weapons and left out the unnecessary weapons to attain maximum level of strategy possible

You can't just keep on adding weapons for the sake of it, tactical and strategical factors cannot be compromised because that is what Worms is, a strategy game!
You realize there are custom editable scheme files which limit weapon usage in different game styles, right? If you'd like to limit the weapon choice available in a game just because you personally wouldn't include weapon X or weapon Y in any scheme, you're stupid.

I enjoy Dabble and Fidget (http://worms2d.info/Dabble_and_Fidget) which makes heavy usage of the mortar and handgun. This game doesn't include those weapons. What a bummer.

Think of it this way. If the DLC pack was optional, how would other players know what on earth is being used, and not crash from invalid/missing content in their game directory? Killing Floor for example recently added a patch that includes extra weapons along with fixes. This is a patch+DLC combo, and makes the most sense for free DLC. Just give it to everyone so there's no problems to deal with. Option DLC would require them to include a patch anyway so that users without the weapons would still be able to see other players use them.

That is a good point, actually, unless the client user could download said info temporarily to their hard drive, but a patch would be needed to implement this functionality in the first place.

A patch to add the content but keep it locked isn't a bad idea, either. You could then see the additional weapons in the scheme editor and have the option to buy them through the game. Tiger Woods does a similar thing whereby you can buy locked items (basically pay to unlock them instead of playing through the game), although they were on the disc in the first place. A small patch every time new DLC weapons are added wouldn't be a problem for the end-user, I'm sure. It wouldn't be that frequent, although it would add development and submission time to the process.

This game doesn't include those weapons. What a bummer.

Sheep don't jump out of crates, either. I'd love to play Sheep BnG (http://vader.wurmz.net/schemes/sheepbng/) on my PS3.

I think they do that with LBP: every time there is new content, there's a new patch. You can't use the content, but you can see it in-game if you haven't bought it.

I've been waiting for this for a long time

Somebody, When it comes out?

Release date finally! yay!

I've been waiting for this for a long time

Somebody, When it comes out?

me too :( Team 17 have only said PC news later in 2009, it would be better if they could at least tell us an approx date or time of release :(

I know the release date! It will come out when it comes.

me too :( Team 17 have only said PC news later in 2009, it would be better if they could at least tell us an approx date or time of release :(

The approx date of release is

I know the release date! It will come out when it comes.

Modern Warfare 2 will be the biggest ever failure of this century..

Modern Warfare 2 will be the biggest ever failure of this century..A: in what way is this relevant to what you quoted?

B: you're an idiot.

Team 17 on FB

"Sorry guys, can't comment on this yet because there is nothing to say yet. We will let you know as soon as there is something to say."

=( =( =(

Modern Warfare 2 will be the biggest ever failure of this century..

I'll assume you pulled that out of your ass.

"Sorry guys, can't comment on this yet because there is nothing to say yet. We will let you know as soon as there is something to say."

Because its only been in development for a few weeks, or maybe less, as they said a while ago they haven't started on it yet.

[QUOTE=Shadowmoon;703486]I'll assume you pulled that out of your ass.


lol sorry man i did not see that you like Zombies of COD WAW, there is nothing left for me to say further >.<

Modern Warfare 2 will be the biggest ever failure of this century..

Right, just out of curiosity, what are your top ten best games ever?

Right, just out of curiosity, what are your top ten best games ever?

1. Spore
2. Crash Bandicoot
3. Super Mario Galaxy
4. Mario Brothers Karts
5. Smash Brothers
6. Worms World Party
7. The Sims 2
8. Pokemon Ruby
9. Portal
10. Spell with me by Hasbro

this is basically a top 10 list that fits with anyone here

So what are yours, Yakuza? Just curious.

So what are yours, Yakuza? Just curious.

Oh, I can use this chance to share my over the top originality regarding taste and justify I'm an unique snowflake.
But really, I couldn't tell. I think production values nowadays of games like Far Cry 2, Bioschok, or whatever should be more important than they are considered. People will still claim Chrono Trigger and Ocarina of Time are better game. I'm a practical guy. I look at games today and realize they look better, play better and sound better, just because I'm more used to that by now and as a grown up man it doesn't give me the chills Super Metroid used to give me I'm not going be nostalgic just because some people mistake that for wisdom.

But then one launches peggle and he has more fun playing that **** than enjoying the cinematic values of Metal Gear Solid 4, so unless you specify very concrete criteria I think top lists are silly.

so yakuza, you really don't consider old games like chrono trigger and Ocarina of Time to be better than most games today?

I mean, I like today's games as much as the next guy and Call of Duty 4 ranks right along-side Ocarina of Time and Mario 64 on my favorites list, but OoT and Mario64 are definitely still ON the list. they may be basic but what they did was amazing.

But then one launches peggle and he has more fun playing that **** than enjoying the cinematic values of Metal Gear Solid 4, so unless you specify very concrete criteria I think top lists are silly.


Peggle may be more fun to play than Metal Gear 4's hours of cinematics are to watch, but not necessarily more satisfying than finally seeing the conclusion to an epic story some of us have followed for nearly two decades.

Peggle may be more fun to play than Metal Gear 4's hours of cinematics are to watch, but not necessarily more satisfying than finally seeing the conclusion to an epic story some of us have followed for nearly two decades.I think the point of that was that he enjoys both sorts of experiences but for WILDLY different reasons.

so yakuza, you really don't consider old games like chrono trigger and Ocarina of Time to be better than most games today?

My point is, if Fallout 3 came out the same week OoT was released then I'm sure Fallout 3 would be now in the "greatest ever" lists, whereas it is not now, because the expectations grow as time passes. Obviously, I acknowledge the merits of making OoT, because the tools weren't as advanced, theoretically, it might have taken the same skill and effort to make OoT than to make Far Cry 2 (although it hasn't).

However, from an objective way of rating, games will continue becoming better and better because production values grow. Sure ideas are timeless and Pong is still fun today but the only reason people might rank Super Mario 64 in the top of the greatest game ever is its innovation, the fact it was a genre pioneer, ahead of its time, an original idea that surprised and made its players go "wow", yet it still lacks a lot by today's standards, bad sound effects, no voice (for the most part), no online multiplayer, bad graphics. So we ask ourselves, why exactly do people rank it so high on their greatest ever lists? Because it was the best game when it came out. Like OoT. It was general knowledge to know that OoT was the best **** you could play on a console and that it was the best game you've ever played whilst you were playing it, no question asked. But I thought the same about Bioschok, so why ain't Bioschok taking Zedla's position in the rankings?

see? I see things a little more generally. I discount graphics completely, for one. so long as the immersion is in place I don't feel the need for fancy graphics. some games need the nice graphics but others simply don't.

even right now, if I go pick up mario64 or OoT, I can play through them and STILL think they're the best games I've played. not because of some sense of nostalgia that they provide, but because the games are so completely solid and well-made that they stand the test of time. I played through OoT about a year ago and enjoyed it every bit as much as COD4 or FallOut 3, even despite the age difference and the difference in complexity.

now, at the same time I remember games like Goldeneye, Tales of Phantasia and Illusion of Gaia as the best games of their times as well, but when I go back to those the age shines through. I may play them and enjoy them, but it's mostly just due to nostalgia.

edit: as for your bioshock point: I think it'll happen over time, but one of the qualities that makes a game the best of all time is its ability to be awesome years down the road. Bioshock will DEFINITELY be ranked among OoT and such as one of the best.

So how old were you when you played through OoT?

The thing is, Mario64 and OoT have solid fun gameplay... bugs are only found if you go out of your way looking for them.

So how old were you when you played through OoT?uh......it was just after they were released. not sure what my age would've been. probably around 11 or so?

my point, though, is that it doesn't matter. I've played games from those days that I'm equally nostalgic over and been bored to tears.

Hi all. Can anyone say to me when Worms 2 Armageddon will be available on Steam???