Here's a list of the ideas we've got so far:

Paul's Manual thing. He did give it an actual name, but I've forgotten it. The art of writing manuals is pretty much a lost one, and I can't find many sites online that look over old manuals or anything. Manuals like the one that came with SimAnt are genius.
The continuation of my old GamePartisan column, Made in England. Although I'd like to change the name please, if it's okay.
Andrew's The Beautiful Game, assuming he actually wants to do it and it's not just a thing he's put up on the Concept Site.

Other things we could do:

A Mac/Linux gaming column. Well, someone needs to discuss it. We can't pretend it doesn't exist.
A girl gamer column, which Amy has volunteered to write provided we don't use the name "gameGeeker".
A Discussion thing of sorts. GamePartisan used to have a thing called "Saturday Night's Alright (for Ranting)" where the staff basically got together in, I think, an IRC chatroom and argued about current gaming events. We could do something similar, perhaps as a Podcast or something (if we can find some kind of audio chatapp that lets us all talk at the same time - Skype supports up to three people, I believe).
Oh, and a generic Podcast, I expect. Well, what kind of site would we be if we didn't have one?

Any other suggestions, and/or thoughts on existing ideas?

edit: Amy also suggested that our Staff bios have updateable "Videogame Diaries" where we can talk about what games we're currently playing and how we find them.

I like the podcasted meetings. There are programs you can use with Skype that allow you to record conferences. I don't like the idea of having a general podcast however, because I don't feel we actually need one. It would be better for us to post any updates about the org in a separate news category so people can view them at their leisure. If you're suggesting a scheduled general podcast that'd be available at the same time every week or two, what would it be about and how would it differ from the multi-person chat?

Mini blogs or profiles for each contributor is a good idea, it reveals more of the warm side of the org.

Everyone knows in their heads that the front page of a web site is like the cover of a book or a shop floor display. If visitors can't find what they need or it doesn't look like the shop does the sort of thing they're after, they won't bother to check with a sales assistant, they'll bugger off. So the front page should offer something for new visitors to make it really obvious what we do, maybe in the way of a brief, highly-indicative introduction (not just random crap) or really well-categorised links, and something for the regular visitors to make them keep on coming back or at least make it one of their daily checks, some kind of 'live' content, like news or character-limited previews of recent articles or a one-line description of the content.

I've been talking (to myself apparently) about this in another organisation I'm working with/for/on (yes, 'on') and I thought of having a news system that used blog-like tags/categories. Each article would use a set of predetermined tags and a visitor would be able to see all articles that came under one or many matching tags. E.G. I could make an article and give it the nintendo and controversy tags, and people would see that article if they searched the listings for articles containing either of those tags or both of them.

There was an idea a bit back about having a big "cover" image like a magazine would have.

The magazine image seems like a good idea, it can expand out character of who we are a bit by doing something zany or whatever.

Here's a list of the ideas we've got so far:

* Paul's Manual thing. He did give it an actual name, but I've forgotten it. The art of writing manuals is pretty much a lost one, and I can't find many sites online that look over old manuals or anything. Manuals like the one that came with SimAnt are genius.
* The continuation of my old GamePartisan column, Made in England. Although I'd like to change the name please, if it's okay.
* Andrew's The Beautiful Game, assuming he actually wants to do it and it's not just a thing he's put up on the Concept Site.

Other things we could do:

* A Mac/Linux gaming column. Well, someone needs to discuss it. We can't pretend it doesn't exist.
* A girl gamer column, which Amy has volunteered to write provided we don't use the name "gameGeeker".
* A Discussion thing of sorts. GamePartisan used to have a thing called "Saturday Night's Alright (for Ranting)" where the staff basically got together in, I think, an IRC chatroom and argued about current gaming events. We could do something similar, perhaps as a Podcast or something (if we can find some kind of audio chatapp that lets us all talk at the same time - Skype supports up to three people, I believe).
* Oh, and a generic Podcast, I expect. Well, what kind of site would we be if we didn't have one?

Any other suggestions, and/or thoughts on existing ideas?

edit: Amy also suggested that our Staff bios have updateable "Videogame Diaries" where we can talk about what games we're currently playing and how we find them.

Those three ideas sound neat. As I'll think of something to do.

Like how we can do other stuff to get visitors interested and to ensure a enjoyable experience, sure reviews are nice but we need to set something up which differs from Gamespot, IGN etc.

Amy's idea of the girl gamer column is a smart one. As you can currently see, the staff consists of Males, so who knows what we'll get. By this I mean folks saying we're sexist etc and all that stuff.

The IRC Chatroom thing, might I suggest Gabby? www.gabbly.com <- Goes on the site and is like a IRC Chatroom just more easier and confortable to use.

Videogame Diaries, nice idea let's do this.

A girl gamer column, which Amy has volunteered to write provided we don't use the name "gameGeeker".
Good idea. Just make it a gamer column written by a girl, not a girl gamer column. Because the latter is just cliché.

Chat room - Bad idea. It's unnecessary, extremely so on a new site. It will not be used. For a fine example of this, see Dream17 chat.

Magazine cover - Bad idea. The front page with all the bells and whistles should be the first thing people see. Why? "Damn intro screens, I just want to access the damn content! Why are you content on wasting my monthly data transfer allowance and ruining my browsing experience by putting obstacles in my way? Sod you, I'm going to <generic games site>." My opinion is that 'active' news and content-rich sites should not have obstructing 'click here to enter' intro pages, they should be kept for things like personal sites, company web sites, etc. In actual fact they serve no purpose! They're about as amatuer as animated GIFs.

Magazine cover - Bad idea. The front page with all the bells and whistles should be the first thing people see. Why? "Damn intro screens, I just want to access the damn content! Why are you content on wasting my monthly data transfer allowance and ruining my browsing experience by putting obstacles in my way? Sod you, I'm going to <generic games site>." My opinion is that 'active' news and content-rich sites should not have obstructing 'click here to enter' intro pages, they should be kept for things like personal sites, company web sites, etc. In actual fact they serve no purpose! They're about as amatuer as animated GIFs.
I was thinking something along the lines of The Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/), which pulls off the magazine-cover look without being unnecessarily obtrusive.

They're about as amatuer as animated GIFs.
Nothing wrong with animated GIFs, if you use them right.

Nothing wrong with animated GIFs, if you use them right.
Like this? (http://boris.gelatinous.net/404.html)

I don't like Skype, I'd rather use something like TeamSpeak to record podcasts. It's free and there's no limit (though too many people makes for a lot of gibberish).
I've been talking (to myself apparently) about this in another organisation I'm working with/for/on (yes, 'on') and I thought of having a news system that used blog-like tags/categories. Each article would use a set of predetermined tags and a visitor would be able to see all articles that came under one or many matching tags. E.G. I could make an article and give it the nintendo and controversy tags, and people would see that article if they searched the listings for articles containing either of those tags or both of them.I think the term "keywords" is more appropriate, but yeah I see what you're getting at, most websites use that system, Andrew shouldn't have much trouble implementing it.

As for columns, I was considering either writing about Old Relics, good old DOS games that nobody plays anymore, or even more modern games that are good yet hardly anyone has heard of.

Skype was suggested in the interests of voice quality and extra features like adding phone numbers to an internet conference using SkypeOut.

Skype was suggested in the interests of voice quality and extra features like adding phone numbers to an internet conference using SkypeOut.
Skype > TeamSpeak

What's Skype?

And are we doing the magazine cover and a IRC chatroom?

Skype is a VoIP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoIP) application. Lets you make phonecalls over the Internet.

I think we should see what everyone thinks about those two before we make decisions on them, Ev.

Also I think we should have the name of the thread updated so we get some more people interested.

http://www.skype.com

While I like the idea of a magazine cover, I do agree that it can be an obstacle. As for an IRC chatroom... well, maybe when we get more hits, eh?

Aside from reviews and columns though, it'd probably help if we had some kind of gaming news on the site as well. A sort of easily updateable News thing. Whenever I hear an interesting piece of gaming news such as [this (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-05-24T044518Z_01_N5N185622_RTRIDST_0_SCIENCE-VIDEOGAMES-DC.XML)] I tend to blog it, always thinking it's the sort of thing I'd love to post on a Gaming website.

YES, BEN... YES! Just YES! You have filled my gap, oi! The mental one, I'm talking about. All of the news worth talking about but with your/our own intelligent, informed view of it.

Skype > TeamSpeak
Skype:

easy to use
extremely unfriendly with 56k
lag even with a decent connection
makes it nigh impossible to record conversations


TeamSpeak:

more complicated interface, but with far, far more options
perfectly 56k friendly, thanks to a wide selection of possible compression codecs at different audio qualities
minimal lag
recording conversations is as easy as clicking the designated "record" button


You decide.

From a Mac user's perspective, however, I'm afraid I have to swing in the direction of Skype. TeamSpeak is not available for Mac OS; rather, a watered-down client called TeamSpeex is used.

TeamSpeex is a great application in terms of just talking. Unfortunately, however, it lacks most of the advanced features of TeamSpeak, including recording and chat. Skype, on the other hand, has been keeping Mac and Windows versions in lockstep. It's simply a better and more fully-featured client, and it's my weapon of choice.

Ventrilo is awesome and has an actually good Mac client. We use it for my WoW guild.

Oh you fruit.

Personally, I've only ever used Google Talk. It's two-person only, but it is almost ludicrously easy to use.

Skype:

easy to use
extremely unfriendly with 56k
lag even with a decent connection
makes it nigh impossible to record conversations

You can record in Skype and GoogleTalk using a program called [HotRecorder (http://www.hotrecorder.com/)]. Freeware it is not, but if we think we can come up with some interesting debates it may be a worthwhile investment. As for the threeway only thing, we can always rotate between three of us a week, e.g. Matty, Andrew and me one fortnight, Munkee, Zeor and Paul the next, etc. etc. (although it depends on availablity, of course).

Four is possible if we involve both Amy and myself, as we're both in the same place.

I'm away for the weekend and I'll be back on Tuesday, so hopefully we can come up with some cracking ideas by then. I'll be buying the domain names on Tuesday too, so it'd be nice to have some kind of idea of what we're going for. Personally, I've warmed to Real Virtuality - realvirt.org as a shortened domain, perhaps?

Real Virtuality doesn't bring videogames to mind. I think you're just going with it because it's a play on words. Did I mention it's not clever? Hovis - Bakers born and bread is clever and is indicative of what it's representing.

Real Virtuality could be used for the name or heading of the audio debate, though.

Hovis - Bakers born and bread is clever and is indicative of what it's representing.
Not half as much as Pepperami: It's a bit of an animal is. Easily the greatest advertising slogan ever, that.

Hehehehehe, now I get that. That's really clever.

So, are we sticking with RealVG then?

edit: I think it might be worthwhile setting up some kind of temporary forum somewhere where we can discuss this. Unfortunately the Team17 Forum is blocked from work, meaning I can't contribute during my working day. I'm thinking of setting up a bare-bones PHPBB within the webspace already allocated to the site (unless someone beats me to it, of course).

No-one else seems to care enough to come up with good suggestions. I still say we have the thread title changed to reflect what the project is now about to attract more ODers' interest, and you or I should clearly state that we want name suggestions and what they should be like. Also it would be a good idea to put something in the very first post similar to "Click here for the mission statement, otherwise read from the end of the thread to catch up with development."

EDIT: Yeah go for it but you'll reduce contribution from this community by doing that, unless you either mirror this thread or people keep on top of both of them. It could be done but the stronger contributors should continue to support the link.

Gamers "R" Us
Games, Wot-wot
Stargames ("Your daily dose of electronic caffeine")
Games 'n Such
Holy Crap, GAMES
Gama Sutra (wait, this one's already taken, isn't it)
Honest Ed's Rave Reviews (alternatively, the title for a subsection)
Pong 20X6 ("This ain't your grandfather's games site!")

Okay, I think I'm all out.

RealVG the name is, it seems.

So have we covered the name and moved on to what else to include?

Was thinking of a Movie section, covering movies of the past to now but that seems a bit IGNish, don't really want to go there.

One thing I don't know of is, who's apart of this project? and how many staff people will there be?

Matt's idea of the thread name change is, as always a good one. Surely other folk of this board watch and read what we do and what to stay informed and updated.

MFAH's Game n Such seems to fit a bit, since the such bit kind of indicates other of the site's content.

We need a original, creative idea which separates us from the typical gaming sites out there, sure they got other content such as movies, and other sections but surely with the intelligence of our bunch put together we can possibly be the best site out there.

I'm thinking for my part to write about Video game characters, mainly the evil ones although heroes could work as well. The game they came from, the year of game, the brief background description, and finally the history/bio of the character.

Don't forget to read the mission statement (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=502364&postcount=413) for the main concept of the org.

I'm thinking for my part to write about Video game characters, mainly the evil ones although heroes could work as well. The game they came from, the year of game, the brief background description, and finally the history/bio of the character.
Pointless. Wikipedia already has you killed on that.

Take a look at the article on Heihachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heihachi_Mishima) from Tekken if you don't believe me.

Awe.

Guess I'll have to think of something else, I'm familar with Wikipedia, the problem is for a game they don't mention some characters so would liked to give a description of that.

But then we'd be affiliated with Elliott. I don't want to run that risk.Speaking of which, I just had a Messenger conversation with him that ran thusly:

Him: Hi.
Me: Hi

And then... nothing. I assume he had something to say to me, or he wouldn't have given me a bell.

Speaking of which, I just had a Messenger conversation with him that ran thusly:

Him: Hi.
Me: Hi

And then... nothing. I assume he had something to say to me, or he wouldn't have given me a bell.
He probably wanted to test MSN.

Or see if you'd blocked him.

He wouldn't be this Elliot by any chance?
http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?action=profile;u=4531

He wouldn't be this Elliot by any chance?
http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?action=profile;u=4531
That's the chap.

Fill me in, please.

Fill me in, please.
this post should tell you everything you need to know about Elliott: http://apathysketchpad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=474#474

I'm buying domains tomorrow evening, so unless we have any alternative (or better) suggestions, it'll be RealVG.org and RealVG.com.

Andrew: Will you be able to set up somer kind of easily updateable news thing for the frontpage? Well, yes, you will. Obviously. But I think as a requirement the form should not allow you to post the news unless you cite a URL source. Ooh, and comments = good, obviously.

Daft idea to limit news like that, Ben, because if the news is about us then we can't link to ourselves. That would be like... whooooahhh (webcam pointed at screen/mirrors opposite each other effect).

...
Fair point.

We just need to establish everyone's skills, what we're exceptionally good at and set a few guidelines on content and organisation. That will come when the bones of the organisation are resident, which means a domain and basic site. The next major decision to make is if we should work on the site and organisation then launch it or launch it now and work on it over time. I recommend the latter because it will mean the site has more history and due to the fact it is up more people will be encouraged to contribute. Also we will be able to see what works and develop the site and org based on that as well as its basic concepts.

I'm just curious as to whether everyone thinks my "three S" reviewing system is good enough to be adopted across the board.

Because I'd feel a tad daft if I was the only one doing it.

Here's a list of the ideas we've got so far:

Paul's Manual thing. He did give it an actual name, but I've forgotten it. The art of writing manuals is pretty much a lost one, and I can't find many sites online that look over old manuals or anything. Manuals like the one that came with SimAnt are genius.
...Well the article would be called "Manual or Automatic?". The column, "Peripherals"

I'm buying domains tomorrow evening, so unless we have any alternative (or better) suggestions, it'll be RealVG.org and RealVG.com.

Andrew: Will you be able to set up somer kind of easily updateable news thing for the frontpage? Well, yes, you will. Obviously. But I think as a requirement the form should not allow you to post the news unless you cite a URL source. Ooh, and comments = good, obviously.
Seems nobody's really objected to RealVG, so I've added it to the thread title, in place of "[please suggest a name]" - any objections post here and I'll change it

Andrew: Will you be able to set up somer kind of easily updateable news thing for the frontpage? Well, yes, you will. Obviously. But I think as a requirement the form should not allow you to post the news unless you cite a URL source. Ooh, and comments = good, obviously.
I see no reason why not. Are we looking at short stories with a few on a page, a few synopses on a page and full articles elsewhere, or one big news item on the front page? Personally, I'd go for the second, although it is probably the most work.

We just need to establish everyone's skills

Ok, ummmmm. Programming essentually. C/C++, java... meh, pretty much useless here.... um HTML, XHTML, (XML ish), PHP, (ASP ish), SQL, JavaScript.
Also dabble in image and sound editing, but there are much better people here for those :P

I think this:

Front page: News about the site, full articles, date order descending, maybe about three or four max. and a link to an archive. Then elsewhere on that page, other article headings with categories and a synopsis, E.G.:

Nintendo Wii videogaming revolution or clever marketing? | Tags: nintendo, consoles, marketing, ... | Posted by: Euan on 2006.07.03

Movie tie-ins and concerns about gameplay | Tags: movies, ea, harry potter ... | Posted by: Ben on 2006.06.27

Or forget the tag system and use categories with sub-categories.

Manual or Automatic?: Amiga Worms | Category: Peripherals | Posted by Paul on 2006.06.12

Manual or Automatic?: SimAnt | Category: Peripherals | Posted by Paul on 2006.05.31

Alternatively, picture a two or three-column layout with the middle/right column for the content. At the top of that column, a quartered box with an article heading, category, date and author, and a brief description of the article's content in each quarter. This would be a showcase for the latest articles, picked at random with one from each category/subcategory or selected for highlighting for a specified time or until an article in that category succeeds it. You might also want to picture little icons being used in stead of category headings. Below this box, the latest organisation news, full articles, descending date order, archive link, etc. Headings, dates and author names alone for other articles would be in a list somewhere else on the page.

Remember to think about keeping the way clear for popular features such as RSS. Would a subscriber be given alerts to all articles or be able to have an alert for each category? Or maybe, if it was possible, only articles with his aspects of preference like author name and category.

Paul, three S system?

Regarding comments, I recommend integrating them with a forum (bulletin board)

Paul, three S system?

Substance, Style, Slant (gameplay and such, graphics/sound/etc, personal opinion of reviewer)

Mark out of ten for each, then average to get a percentage.

E.G. some proposed review scores of mine:

Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager (PC)

Substance: 4
Style: 2
Slant: 7

Overall: 43%


Chris Sawyer's Locomotion (PC)

Substance: 8
Style: 6
Slant: 8

Overall: 73%


Advance Wars: Dual Strike (DS)

Substance: 9
Style: 7
Slant: 10

Overall: 87%


Sonic Rush (DS)

Substance: 7
Style: 8
Slant: 9

Overall: 80%

(I also assume here that we're taking 50% as average, making 70% and 80% jolly good scores)

(I also assume here that we're taking 50% as average, making 70% and 80% jolly good scores)
Yep, that's what was included in the Vision Statement or whatever that Ben drafted up.

Cower before the mighty Vision Statement™!

Who started percentages in game ratings? What's it a rating of? What if a game was 0% good? Would that make it pure evil? And would a 100% game be perfect? Because perfection is highly unlikely if not impossible, meaning the maximum score would be 99%. I've never seen a game mag give a 100% award before.

I like the idea, Paul. PC Pro and What PC? use systems like that, and I find them to be highly good. But I think slant needs a little more explaining and of how it's relevant to a game score.

Maybe we could also have some sort of collective VG-related comics/art section, where any of the staff could make and upload something at will. I don't think it'd be a particularly wise move to make it a weekly feature, more of a "whenever someone comes up with something good" thing.

Even if they were irregularly updated, comics would increase viewership. You know this. :p

Seems RealVG is the official name, thomas.

I like Paul's rating system, it's original and creative, as no one else has done it before, except the percent area. Although, I'm not sure how you come to the percentage bit.

You all know me to be positive in people's ideas or replies and never give a negative. So MFAH's idea is support by me, but not sure what others think of it, they might like it. I'm not an artist, though I'm more key to writing reviews. Since we have that already, to be honest I'm not sure what else to do. Writing is my only true skill I've seen in myself.

Matt's subscriber idea should be done, " only articles with his aspects of preference like author name and category." could work but why not all authors and categories? get the reader interested in other genres of games, who knows he/she might like it.

Cower before the mighty Vision Statement™!



I like the idea, Paul. PC Pro and What PC? use systems like that, and I find them to be highly good. But I think slant needs a little more explaining and of how it's relevant to a game score.Well, Mobygames also uses Slant for game ranting, and describes it as: How much you personally like the game, regardless of other attributes.

Well, the percentages come in because I feel uncomfortable rating a game as "eight and a third out of ten".

We could give marks out of thirty instead of a percentage, but that's kinda splitting hairs. Games would only ever be rated as X0%, X3% and X7%, so we wouldn't actually be splitting hairs down to hundredths.

Well, the percentages come in because I feel uncomfortable rating a game as "eight and a third out of ten".

We could give marks out of thirty instead of a percentage, but that's kinda splitting hairs. Games would only ever be rated as X0%, X3% and X7%, so we wouldn't actually be splitting hairs down to hundredths.
Or, we could just give them a percentage based on our overall opinion rather than based on some arbitrary mathematical forumula that gives equal weight to slant, style and substance. You'd have a style mark, a substance mark, a slant mark, and an overall mark that may or may not have anything to do with the other marks. You might come across a game where the style is massively important, or the substance is the main attraction, and you'd want to be able to score them fairly without fudging the slant mark to try to accomodate it in a rigid scoring system.

Manual or Automatic?: Amiga Worms | Category: Peripherals | Posted by Paul on 2006.06.12

Manual or Automatic?: SimAnt | Category: Peripherals | Posted by Paul on 2006.05.31
Well, it wouldn't quite be like that. I'm planning on making MoA just one article, not several.

Also, minor silly little correction, but SimEarth is going to be my example, not SimAnt (I haven't actually played SimAnt, to be fair. I kinda went "I have limited cash and hard disk space... do I buy a game which lets me run an ant colony, or a planet? Hmm...").

Would a subscriber be given alerts to all articles or be able to have an alert for each category? Or maybe, if it was possible, only articles with his aspects of preference like author name and category.I suggested subscribing to all articles an' all, Ev.

* presses Restart Later *

Andy's right, a percentage based on an average that included a score for graphics feels unfair. I'd suggest a 10 point scale for overall score but that would feel inaccurate and using decimals is silly. Maybe we could assign one or two kinds of recommendation awards, E.G. "RealVG game Worms 12 their Thumbs Up!"

What if we just had "thumbs up" and "thumbs down"? Honestly, aren't recommendations all that really matter? You don't go to a game site, analyze their score mathematically, and then determine your purchase in comparison to other games. At least I don't.

I do. I divide all the scores by the price of the games, and then I buy the one that represents best value for money. Sometimes I spend a whole week doing this. Then I play that game until I've finished it, sell it, and start again.
What if we just had "thumbs up" and "thumbs down"? Honestly, aren't recommendations all that really matter? You don't go to a game site, analyze their score mathematically, and then determine your purchase in comparison to other games. At least I don't.
I don't think that's enough. There are too many "maybe" games out there, and it doesn't let you say if a game is phenomenal or merely pretty good.

I always liked Arcade's system: five stars. I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I think it'd be easier to retype it than to find it. It lets you distinguish between "good" and "excellent", and between "alrightish" and "bad", but it doesn't pretend that you can pinpoint the quality of a game to two decimal places, and it doesn't encourage people to draw conclusions like "well, I could get Half Life 2, but according to RealVG.org Mario Kart: Double Dash!! is two percent better. That comparison doesn't mean anything.

I'd much rather a brief "verdict" paragraph (say, one to three sentences or so) and a five-star rating to a fractional score calculated mathematically to four significant figures. It would allow the reader to apply their own subjective bias to the review that way, as well: if the verdict said that it was an otherwise great game with lacklustre graphics and sloppy controls, a reader who valued graphics and controls would mentally score it low, whereas if it simply said "91%" they would probably simply take that score at face value.

I see no reason why not. Are we looking at short stories with a few on a page, a few synopses on a page and full articles elsewhere, or one big news item on the front page? Personally, I'd go for the second, although it is probably the most work.
Individual news posts, sort of like a Blog but not quite, with what is now going to be an optional source field. So the result would look like:

Microsoft throws in the towel - 7th July 2007
We should've seen it coming, really - poor sales of Microsoft's "handheld" console, the X-Boy, coupled with their finanically crippling legal battles with Nintendo concerning the name, mean that Microsoft have decided to stop making the remarkably oversized monstrosity and focus on the markets they feel they might just be able to turn a profit in, such as their new line of cross-stitching magazines.

My 1st-gen X-Boy is likely to become a bit of a collector's item, them. eBay, here I come!

Source: Reuters (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-05-30T193315Z_01_N5U142956_RTRIDST_0_TECH-MEDIA-VIDEOGAMES-DC.XML&archived=False)

Only... y'know, with the proper article. And about things that might actually happen.

Agreed on the verdict thing, Andy. The five stars is very simple, could be used. I imagine five stars would mean 'must buy', four 'good game, get it if you can/worth it', three 'good', two 'average', one 'we reviewed it'. That's my impression of the system, is that aligned with other people's?

Having thought about that, it seems to be a system for reviewing new games, it might not work as well on older ones. Also I expect we'd have a lot of three and four star games, it would get a bit samey. But if an overall percentage isn't worked out by a sum, what's the deal with scores like 73% and 69%? How do you measure your own like of something accurately? Ultimately the final score for a game would be subjective, which isn't fair. If we decide to go for a percentage maybe we should expand or focus the ten-point criteria and make it an average of those. But there are a lot of aspects of a game that can't be measured and are subjective. How about having multiple people test and rate the game, then average that?

How about having multiple people test and rate the game, then average that?Mostly because I can't see people wanting to multiple-test-and-rate Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager ;).

Well, wherever possible, then :)

I just realised that a whole review including stats is entirely subjective! How can we regulate scoring and keep it as accurate as possible? Maybe we should set criteria for each of the mini ratings. E.G. Graphics would have a list of stuff like artifacts, tearing, texture quality, unnecessary slow-down, real world similarities if appropriate. Substance would be attention to detail in real world similarities if appropriate, control system, storyline, GUI, learning curve, replay factor, features, unlockables, expansion and customisation capabilities, etc.

EDIT EDIT EDIT Apparently I edited this post after I posted it. I thought it was a straight post. You may not have seen the important content in it.

Mostly because I can't see people wanting to multiple-test-and-rate Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager ;).
We could all go round to yours and play it. We could do a big feature.

We could plot a graph of How Entertaining Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager Is against HOw Much Alcohol We Have Consumed.

We could all go round to yours and play it. We could do a big feature.

We could plot a graph of How Entertaining Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager Is against HOw Much Alcohol We Have Consumed.Five pints later...

"Hey, look! I pressed Return and it said 'W' at me! What's George Bush got to do with this game? Wait... why do I need to send in a new batsman?"

We could plot a graph of How Entertaining Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager Is against HOw Much Alcohol We Have Consumed.
You know, stuff like that is what we need. Quirky, fun features that will set us apart from the competition.

I certainly don't intend to go about it without messing around and I don't think my wonderful friends here in the worming world have any intention of doing so, either :) It's assumed that our personalities and comedic ability (if any) will bring out the shine in some areas.

EDIT: Yes.

EDIT: Yes.
Oh, I see how it is.

Domains purchased. I (we) am (are) now the proud owner(s) of RealVG.org and RealVG.com. I can't change the nameservers for 48 hours, so they won't point to the serversapce Cyclaws has kindly allocated for us until then. I've knocked up a pretty basic ["coming eventually" splash page (http://www.dream17.co.uk/realvg)] which, of course, we can always change before we actually point the domain name there.

Did a post of Ev's just get deleted in here?

Did a post of Ev's just get deleted in here?

I deleted it, it wasn't important.

Ben, will it be http://www.realvg.org and .com?

Don't like the dream17 added, it reminds me of bad times what happened there.

Has anyone had any ideas for a "look"?

We toyed with modern, shiny, rounded graphics last time this thread was on page one, whereas Ben's logo is more the pop-art, retro, block colours look. The two can be combined of course, or else we could go with something unlike either. Ideas, anyone?

Page layout suggestions wouldn't be amiss, either. But if we want to have "icons" for formats and avatars for reviewers, we really need to get them designed before launch, and we need to know what look we're using before that can happen. And there's likely to be quite a few of them, so a couple of days notice might be useful.
Did a post of Ev's just get deleted in here?
He deleted it himself. Don't worry your little head about it.

One question:

How are we going to announce this to the forum without it looking like another "Seniors" job - thus revealing OD?

Ben, will it be http://www.realvg.org and .com?
Both will be useable, but I think we'll only really be actively promoting the .org address. Keeping a .com is worth doing though, because it's the Big One and we don't want someone snatching that away from us. No, sir.

Don't like the dream17 added, it reminds me of bad times what happened there.
That's only temporary - it won't appear once the domains are in place.

Has anyone had any ideas for a "look"?

We toyed with modern, shiny, rounded graphics last time this thread was on page one, whereas Ben's logo is more the pop-art, retro, block colours look. The two can be combined of course, or else we could go with something unlike either. Ideas, anyone?
My logo isn't necessarily what we're going to use, at the moment I see it as more of a placeholder (unless, of course, we all like it in which case hoorah!). I like the idea of the pop-art style, though - can't say there are many gaming sites with that loook about them. Most of them are far too busy trying to look "edgy".

My logo isn't necessarily what we're going to use, at the moment I see it as more of a placeholder (unless, of course, we all like it in which case hoorah!). I like the idea of the pop-art style, though - can't say there are many gaming sites with that loook about them. Most of them are far too busy trying to look "edgy".
Yeah, it is a good look, and it's generally easier to work with than subtle images that you notice looping. I'm pretty happy to go with it if someone can knock up a decent layout around it. (If they can't I'll have a crack, but I'm rather busy these days so that wouldn't be for a while yet.)


One question:

How are we going to announce this to the forum without it looking like another "Seniors" job - thus revealing OD?
We could not tell them. Let them find it on their own, maybe a signature pointing to it or something.

Or, have a rigged thread in Online Orgy recruiting people. That would provide hours of almost completely unethical fun.

Or, have a rigged thread in Online Orgy recruiting people. That would provide hours of almost completely unethical fun.
Oh man, that would be classic.

I say we don't announce it, and just do the sig thing. Maybe we could all be really sneaky and insert a mini "rVG" logo into the corner of our avatars, or something.

One question:

How are we going to announce this to the forum without it looking like another "Seniors" job - thus revealing OD?Why would it look like "another Seniors job"? It's just a gaming website. Dream17 is mostly made of ODers and it isn't seen as "another Seniors job". If anything, most "outside posts" about Dream17 are ignored, so it'd probably get the same treatment.

I looked at Ben's logo (for about the fifteenth time), and this barged into my head so I thought it I might as well air it:
27753


It's too late at night for me to offer any useful opinion of it, so here it is. You decide. It's a ten minute job, though; it could very easily be done a lot more professionally.

Edit: I thought it'd look stupid on the blue, but I'm not so sure now I've seen it.

Edit2: Might want to swap the orange and white around. Depends on the background colour.

For the look,

I've thought of the WarioWare style - http://www.warioware.biz/ but since it's done, not sure if we can use it. I liked Dream17's purple theme, since it being a unisex color, it attracts both male and female people. One thing we need to do for the site is to show it's a "for all ages" and for girls too. We don't want letters, emals of being sexist do we?

For websites, I like the retro feel. But others might not, so a more suitable layout for all of us to like would make more sense. I like Ben's retro blocking and color, but we need a color for the site which isn't too bright nor too dark to see anything.

Are we going for a one color classic scheme? or different colors for links etc?

Andrew, do you have an idea for the icons?

thomas - What do you mean by "seniors" job?

Andrew, do you have an idea for the icons?
I'd rather assumed they'd just be control pads or whatever part of a console best summed it up, but if we go for a look with all stark lines at 0/30/90 degrees and then someone comes along and draws a series of great looking pads, but does them all bouncy and curvy and at 45 degrees, they won't fit very well, so it'd make sense to plan the layout first.

I think the site should be simplistic, functional yet warm and clean. Not appearing brash or overly cartoony, but not too professional-looking.

I made an example icon for the Gamecube. Here's the icon in normal size and the same thing but blown up for easier viewing. These are just a rough guide to what I'm thinking. I'm not a good artist. It hasn't been drawn with Dream17 in mind, it's a Gamecubey colour.

One thing we need to do for the site is to show it's a "for all ages" and for girls too. We don't want letters, emals of being sexist do we?
And how are we going to do that? We can't put up a text that says "FOR AGES 1 TO ONE BILLION, GIRLS AND BOYS ARE ACCEPTABLE TOO".

Actually, we can, but we shouldn't.
I made an example icon for the Gamecube. Here's the icon in normal size and the same thing but blown up for easier viewing. These are just a rough guide to what I'm thinking. I'm not a good artist. It hasn't been drawn with Dream17 in mind, it's a Gamecubey colour.
It's too small. I have to squint to see it. How about 32x32 instead?

I think the site should be simplistic, functional yet warm and clean. Not appearing brash or overly cartoony, but not too professional-looking.

I made an example icon for the Gamecube. Here's the icon in normal size and the same thing but blown up for easier viewing. These are just a rough guide to what I'm thinking. I'm not a good artist. It hasn't been drawn with Dream17 in mind, it's a Gamecubey colour.
Imo, it's too simplistic. :p Something bigger with a more well-defined Gamecube (or at least the Gamecube logo) would be better.
And how are we going to do that? We can't put up a text that says "FOR AGES 1 TO ONE BILLION, GIRLS AND BOYS ARE ACCEPTABLE TOO".

Actually, we can, but we shouldn't.He didn't mean "explicitally", just to make sure the website content is suited for all ages.

I looked at Ben's logo (for about the fifteenth time), and this barged into my head so I thought it I might as well air it:
27753


It's too late at night for me to offer any useful opinion of it, so here it is. You decide. It's a ten minute job, though; it could very easily be done a lot more professionally.

Edit: I thought it'd look stupid on the blue, but I'm not so sure now I've seen it.

Edit2: Might want to swap the orange and white around. Depends on the background colour.
I quite like it, assuming that butchered pixellated thing at the bottom is a Space Invader. :p

Sorry, I'm in a bit of a critical mood at the moment. I really do like it.

I think 32x32 looks a bit too big. If you can picture some of these icons next to each other near an article heading and synopsis, to symbolise the formats a game is available for, you may think the same. These aren't navigation icons.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to have paragraphs on an orange background. I've switched the two cell background colours around to see what it's like. I don't have the same fonts.

I think 32x32 looks a bit too big. If you can picture some of these icons next to each other near an article heading and synopsis, to symbolise the formats a game is available for, you may think the same. These aren't navigation icons.
Oh, is that what those are for? Now it makes more sense.

This has been bothing me for a while, so I'll say it. FutureWorm, do you have something against me? it's coming to a point for me, I can't post anymore without your "comments" you keep making it so I can't post anymore.

I don't want to go under the handle FatWhitey/FW for this. Just my name.

Relax. No, I do not have something against you personally. I just find some of your comments a bit confusing.

What do you mean?

I will say this though, my grammar and proper wordings are not right. The way you see now is my own style as I've adapted to it.

Used to type: This is my sentance I used to write so no , or periods were used

I don't know how to use ' words, like wasn't or was not

I'm easily confused with words like where and were, a personal thing happened to me in the 8th grade, so that could be affecting my brain.

Why would it look like "another Seniors job"? It's just a gaming website. Dream17 is mostly made of ODers and it isn't seen as "another Seniors job". If anything, most "outside posts" about Dream17 are ignored, so it'd probably get the same treatment.
You've just given me a brilliant idea: :D

Announce it on Dream17 first! Then, a couple of days later, announce it here. That way, it'll look less like an OD thing.

I think 32x32 looks a bit too big. If you can picture some of these icons next to each other near an article heading and synopsis, to symbolise the formats a game is available for, you may think the same. These aren't navigation icons.
I suppose it depends where and how we use them, then. I mean, if you look at http://gamegeeker.apathysketchpad.com/review1.html then a 16x16 icon would look stupid there. But if we had a row of them next to a line of text, the example I put up would look stupid. Which is why I think we need to design a layout and then start drawing the graphics for that layout, rather than designing little bits and then trying to weld them together into a coherent layout.

I quite like it, assuming that butchered pixellated thing at the bottom is a Space Invader. :p

Sorry, I'm in a bit of a critical mood at the moment. I really do like it.
I just meant it to be some pixels. I just waved the mouse around at random to make them. I think using a big pixelly Space Invader as a site motif would probably be a little bit too similar to Arcade.

I would assume that if we used something like that it would be redone from scratch and nicely anti-aliased anyway, so changing the pixels around to look more/less like whatever you care to mention would be the simplest thing inthe world.

Edit: I'd imagined it would be shrunk down and used for sidebars and comment boxes and things, rather than the main body of the site, which I'd assumed would probably be on white. (I think websites being on black looks a bit Corporate Cool, and makes putting borders things hard.)

I think 32x32 looks a bit too big. If you can picture some of these icons next to each other near an article heading and synopsis, to symbolise the formats a game is available for, you may think the same. These aren't navigation icons.
How about 24x24?

I think the site just needs to look simplistic but good. And we also need to decide on a colour scheme before everyone starts submitting little bits of art. I think we need 1 person to do all the graphical images like the banner at the top just to keep it all in the same style.

Okay, rethink of the scoring system on a "stars" basis, and removing the need for an actual average.

Michael Vaughan's Cricket Manager (PC)

Substance: **
Style: *
Slant: ***
Overall: **


Chris Sawyer's Locomotion (PC)

Substance: ****
Style: ***
Slant: ****
Overall: ****


Advance Wars: Dual Strike (DS)

Substance: *****
Style: ***
Slant: *****
Overall: *****


Sonic Rush (DS)

Substance: ***
Style: ****
Slant: ****
Overall: ****

I really don't like stars. They make it very hard to see which games are better.

Potentially one game could have 3.5/5 and another could have 4.5/5 and both have 4 stars. It's the difference between 70% and 90%. When I look at reviews of games I like to see a clear score like 79% or 8.2/10. I find it's far easier that way.

Personally I don't like percentages, but I do prefer having 0.0 to 5.0 than 0 to 5, since eventually I end up giving any decent game either 3 or 4, and that gets pretty repetitive. 0.0 to 5.0 is more accurate.

worMatty: I understand what those icons are for, and if we wanted we could even use them on some sort of review index to easily show what console each game refers to (in which case the small size would make more sense), but I still think they should be more representative than just a coloured gradient. If you just had some small images with "GCN", "PS2" and so on shown in a rather fancy way, surely people would figure it out more easily, or even using the consoles' logos.

...

I think maybe it's best if I just table the options and you guys sort it among yourselves ;).

Heh :)

The little icon I made has a GC-shaped box in the BG, but it doesn't come across clearly. I did the GC because it's one of the simplest to draw. If it were compared with other console icons with a silhouette of each console in its background, and a colour change, it would be more apparent.

Maybe we're looking at the scoring system from the wrong angle. If we were casual game players who visited a review site like ours that had a reputation for producing very fair and accurate review scores, what would be most helpful to us? I think an overall score is only really useful if you're trying to make a game stand out amongst others by giving it a high score. It would make it easier for us to catalogue our reviews by one common score but it is not essential.

Therefore I think we would be best dropping the overall score and just scoring games on individual criteria like the ones Paul suggested, out of five stars each, and having a 'recommended' award that we give to games we think owning is a good idea. A verdict is a must for the power games buyers, fan sites, other media organisations, developers and publishers.

Regarding site layout, it would be more organised to develop a layout first but there's no harm in experimenting on the small bits. By doing this we can brainstorm, share ideas and feel more confident in what we're deciding upon.

Heh :)

The little icon I made has a GC-shaped box in the BG, but it doesn't come across clearly. I did the GC because it's one of the simplest to draw. If it were compared with other console icons with a silhouette of each console in its background, and a colour change, it would be more apparent.I did notice, but the way you drew it, I don't see how every console won't just be a differently-sized box, since that's their basic shape. :p

In regards to the layout, I can't help there since I've never been good at that, but we probably shouldn't waste too much time on it. Getting something basic and functional up should be our focus, and it'll probably be easier to figure out what needs changing if we actually use it.

I know the design is an important part, I just don't want us to get stuck over-planning like last time which eventually led to this idea dying.

I looked at Ben's logo (for about the fifteenth time), and this barged into my head so I thought it I might as well air it:
27753
Gotta say, I like it. I think it flows nicely with the logo, and I agree with both your and Matty's comments on the colour - orange for the sidebars, white for the centre. Maybe a middle-to-dark grey for the background - #808080 perhaps?

I've thought of the WarioWare style - http://www.warioware.biz/ but since it's done, not sure if we can use it. I liked Dream17's purple theme, since it being a unisex color, it attracts both male and female people. One thing we need to do for the site is to show it's a "for all ages" and for girls too. We don't want letters, emals of being sexist do we?
With regards to WarioWare.biz, are you talking about the "scribbly" look? It's a nice idea and it's been implemented well at the WarioWare site, but I don't really think it would do our content any justice. That and [GameStation (http://www.gamestation.co.uk/)] in the UK use a similar-ish motif for their posters, so it might cause Brand Confusion.

Ooh er, I've gone all Business.

...icons...
I like the idea, but they do need to be a tad bigger. 32x32 is a bit big, but 16x16 is a bit small. We need a Happy Medium. And who says it has to be a "standard" figure, either? We're trying to be different, remember? :p

Scores
I think we should go with an Out Of Ten score. It's nice and simple like the Stars system, and it doesn't confuse people like a percentage score might. I think an Overall Score is important, but that individual scores for other people who want to do an "in brief" style review to compliment the main review wouldn't go amiss either. I'm quite fond of Paul's SSS (S3?) system, too. We should also consider doing some kind of "RealVG Recommended!" tag for good games, and a "RealVG... um... the complete opposite of recommended" tag for crap games. Only... y'know, not so crap sounding.

Announce it on Dream17 first! Then, a couple of days later, announce it here. That way, it'll look less like an OD thing.
I had thought of doing something similar (in fact I had considered making Dream17 "Part of the RealVG network", but that seemed to be a Step Too Far). I've added a link to the site on my [blog (http://www.benpaddon.co.uk/)] too, which might act as a bit of a subtle hinty... thing.

Edit: RealVG.org (and .com) now point to the site. Whoo!

I did recommend that we get up a basic site ASAP and develop it during the course of its life. Content is the most important aspect of a site, so it's what we should be concentrating on. As an example: http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/worms/wa/

Ben, think about this: What uses does an overall score serve?

I think for this site to run smoothly we need to have several pages where we can submit not just our own reviews but things like ratings for games too.

Personally, I doubt I'll do more than one review simply because I'm too lazy and I especially don't like writing things. If possible I'd like there to be a way to submit our own scores using a form, simply because it would save a lot of html hassle.


27766
Then if Ev submitted his score...
27767

27766
Except, of course, that by total, you mean overall score.

I've explained this. The overall score should be independant of the categories in the breakdown, and using a straight total clearly isn't. Granted it's three seconds more thinking, but those are three seconds well spent.

Edits: reader accounts and comments now work.

Except, of course, that by total, you mean overall score.
It was going to be "Average" but that would have meant making the image too wide to fit on so it became "Total".

It was going to be "Average" but that would have meant making the image too wide to fit on so it became "Total".
"Average" still depends as much on your choice of review categories than on the game, though, doesn't it?

Yes, so if you gave a game full marks on gameplay but low marks on graphics it would get only an average overall score, which is not a fair comparison with other games. Games differ greatly so it should be up to the player to determine what is right for him, which is why I proposed dropping overall scoring and just keeping a final verdict, criteria such as gameplay and graphics and the optional 'recommended' award. IMO the only thing overall scores are good for is for looking good on paper or a game's packaging, E.G. "RealVG gave Worms 12 98%!" Accuracy and fairness are the most important aspects in a review, and a number, regardless of where it's pulled from is faceless and meaningless to the average person. Have you only ever bought games that were rated above 75% in an appropriate review mag or site?

Yes, so if you gave a game full marks on gameplay but low marks on graphics it would get only an average overall score, which is not a fair comparison with other games. Games differ greatly so it should be up to the player to determine what is right for him, which is why I proposed dropping overall scoring and just keeping a final verdict, criteria such as gameplay and graphics and the optional 'recommended' award. IMO the only thing overall scores are good for is for looking good on paper or a game's packaging, E.G. "RealVG gave Worms 12 98%!" Accuracy and fairness are the most important aspects in a review, and a number, regardless of where it's pulled from is faceless and meaningless to the average person. Have you only ever bought games that were rated above 75% in an appropriate review mag or site?
I think it's important to have some kind of ranking, though, even if it is only out of five or ten, because you really don't want to have to read through a paragraph for each game when you can just skip over anything bad enough to rate less than four out of ten. If there's nothing at all to suggest at-a-glance what sort of quality bracket a game fits in to, the site becomes unscalable.

Personally I don't think people are capable of pinpointing the quality of a game to beyond X-out-of-ten. It's just a way for games magazines to say this game is better than another game, is better than a third game without explicitly saying it. Film critics would never give percentages, food critics don't give scores at all, literary critics wouldn't dream of offering a percentage score, and in strict point of face nobody in the world aside from video games reviewers do, except when that score is an average of many, many opinions.

I'm undecided as to what the best thing to do is, but whatever it is I'm damn sure it doesn't involve any arithmetic.

What use is it telling visitors which reviews they should and shouldn't read by giving them an indication via a score or rank? I read reviews in order to make a buying decision, I don't visit a site and decide to only read the reviews that have given a game a high rank.

We could lower the passmark for the 'recommended' award, that should help people decide which reviews they want to read. Our recommendation would be given to any game we feel is worth buying, sorting the wheat from the chaff. Then visitors could see, at-a-glance, reviews for games that are worth them reading, if that's the way they like to do it.

EDIT: We could provide our visitors the ability to vote the score of a game. Visitors could then take in to account our reviews and other visitors' comments and score in making a buying/downloading decision.

Let's stop for a moment and consider Pac-Man World 2.

Pac-Man World 2 is, by all accounts, a fairly average platform game. It's not particularly astounding in the graphics department. It's not what you would consider a "great" platform game. And it essentially borrows all of its "good" ideas from other games. The camera is annoying. The arcade unlockables are good but, to be honest, not worth the price of the game.

Considering that the S3 score is probably going to be low/lower/moderate, would I recommend Pac-Man World 2 to a friend? Yes. It's not fantastic, but it's a good throwaway 3D Platformer and not a tremendously bad way to kill time. How do we deal with games like this, that will receive a low score but that could potentially be "RealVG Recommended"?

Recommend them?

What I don't understand is the conclusion of the total. You take those three ratings but do what? sorry, I'm having a hard time following this.

"Average" still depends as much on your choice of review categories than on the game, though, doesn't it?Surely though if enough people submit their scores, it will even itself out. Infact, you could have members (not admins/mods) have a different rating poll, separate from the admin/mod scores.

I don't see the point of giving scores like Substance: 6.7, Style: 7.3, Slant: 7.1 if we're just going to decide to give it an overall rating of 7.2/10. It seems a bit random to me. I can't just grab a score out of the air as there's no real difference between 7.1 and 7.3. IMO, there should be some "formula" to work it out for us, and taking an average of all 3 is the obvious way.
Have you only ever bought games that were rated above 75% in an appropriate review mag or site?Mostly, yes. If something gets a bad review then it is probably a bad game and not worth spending my money on. However I also buy games which have been rated relatively low if I think it's the type of game I'll enjoy.

The problem with an average overall score worked out by averaging category scores is that a game might have great substance but low graphics and is worth playing but gets an average score, and a game that is utter crap but has very good graphics also gets an average score. How can you compare both games by looking at their overall scores? It can't be done. It's inaccurate and as I've said, serves only as something to put on the front cover of a game. The review content and verdict matters most, so an overall score is unnecessary. Ben raised a good point about still recommending a game that might have moderate gameplay and rubbish graphics, which is why the 'recommended' award is a good idea and should be used in stead of a high overall score. It's like a manual override.

Quick question:
Is this thread's title changing every second day or what?
:D

The problem with an average overall score worked out by averaging category scores is that a game might have great substance but low graphics and is worth playing but gets an average score, and a game that is utter crap but has very good graphics also gets an average score. How can you compare both games by looking at their overall scores? It can't be done. It's inaccurate and as I've said, serves only as something to put on the front cover of a game. The review content and verdict matters most, so an overall score is unnecessary. Ben raised a good point about still recommending a game that might have moderate gameplay and rubbish graphics, which is why the 'recommended' award is a good idea and should be used in stead of a high overall score. It's like a manual override.
The overall score doesn't have to be an average, though. You can just offer it independently of your S3 score. Who said maths had to be involved?

The problem with an average overall score worked out by averaging category scores is that a game might have great substance but low graphics and is worth playing but gets an average score, and a game that is utter crap but has very good graphics also gets an average score. How can you compare both games by looking at their overall scores? It can't be done. It's inaccurate and as I've said, serves only as something to put on the front cover of a game. The review content and verdict matters most, so an overall score is unnecessary. Ben raised a good point about still recommending a game that might have moderate gameplay and rubbish graphics, which is why the 'recommended' award is a good idea and should be used in stead of a high overall score. It's like a manual override.
I think the recommended idea is good but we do need a way of getting an overall score. It isn't just something to put on a front cover. If I'm generally looking for a few more games, I'll pick up a magazine. I don't have the time or patience to read through all the reviews, I generally look at ones with big reviews and high marks, and look at any reviews with nice screenshots. I certainly wouldn't buy a games magazine which didn't have scores in as it's utterly useless. I don't have time to read through all of them, I don't want to read through all of them. I will read/scan read about a dozen of them. Usually though there's at least one game which catches my eye. If I'm looking for someone's opinion on a game I want to know what's good about it, what's bad about it and finally the score. Without the score, I probably won't be bothered to read the article unless the screenshots are nice. And I say that because I'm not going to read every review that everyone puts up on this site - without a score I have no way of knowing which games are (probably) better. Most of the time games get a fair review and a fair score and tend to be a good indication of how good a game is.

I see your point and maybe we should go with AT's idea but we definetly need an overall score of somekind.

Hang on a minute. Let me make sure I'm doing this right.

Substance: Gameplay
Style: Graphics/sound/look/feel
Slant: Personal opinion of reviewer

Looks to me like we already have our "Overall Score". Like I said, I'd give Pac-Man low Substance and Style ratings but it'd get a high Slant from me.

edit: Gotta say, I like it. I think it flows nicely with the logo, and I agree with both your and Matty's comments on the colour - orange for the sidebars, white for the centre. Maybe a middle-to-dark grey for the background - #808080 perhaps?
Er... hang on. Ignore this bit. I was subconciously ripping off the old Team17 website.

double edit:
I'm in the process of setting up a basic PHPBB Forum for us to discuss the development of the site there, as the Team17 Forum is blocked from work and I can't really contribute to this thread during the day.

I just thought I'd flesh out a little what substance and style would actually mean.

Substance is not just gameplay, but addictiveness, learning curve, flexibility, controls, lifespan, replay value, and so on.

Style is not just graphics and sound, but music, plot, atmosphere, attention to detail, and so on.

If you use overall score to determine which reviews you should read or what games you should buy, that is solved by using the 'recommended' award.

Hang on a minute. Let me make sure I'm doing this right.

Substance: Gameplay
Style: Graphics/sound/look/feel
Slant: Personal opinion of reviewer

Looks to me like we already have our "Overall Score". Like I said, I'd give Pac-Man low Substance and Style ratings but it'd get a high Slant from me.

edit:
Er... hang on. Ignore this bit. I was subconciously ripping off the old Team17 website.

double edit:
I'm in the process of setting up a basic PHPBB Forum for us to discuss the development of the site there, as the Team17 Forum is blocked from work and I can't really contribute to this thread during the day.
Any chance we could get a link? I would suggest a phpbb mod called EasyMOD is makes life incredibly easy when it comes to installing mods.

Whoah, there, hold your horses. We don't need no stinkin' mods (just yet). Besides, the project I'm involved in right now is really going down the drain so I may transfer my vBulletin license to this cause for long-term use when the site is launched. The database built up at the old site is a year and a half old, and is rich in posts and members but there would be little point in keeping it alive if the organisation it's involved with disbands.

What use is it telling visitors which reviews they should and shouldn't read by giving them an indication via a score or rank?
The idea is so that people don't have to read every word on the site if they're looking for a good game. If, on the other hand, they're looking for something to read or are looking to find out if a specific game is any good, the other reviews are useful. But a detailed review of a bad game is of little use to someone who wants to find the best game they can.

Let's stop for a moment and consider Pac-Man World 2.

Pac-Man World 2 is, by all accounts, a fairly average platform game. It's not particularly astounding in the graphics department. It's not what you would consider a "great" platform game. And it essentially borrows all of its "good" ideas from other games. The camera is annoying. The arcade unlockables are good but, to be honest, not worth the price of the game.

Considering that the S3 score is probably going to be low/lower/moderate, would I recommend Pac-Man World 2 to a friend? Yes. It's not fantastic, but it's a good throwaway 3D Platformer and not a tremendously bad way to kill time. How do we deal with games like this, that will receive a low score but that could potentially be "RealVG Recommended"?
Personally, I think we should allow reccommended awards to games with low ratings. Nintendo Magazine would only give their Seal OF Approval to a game with 90% or more, and that just lead to all games getting exactly 90%.

IMO, there should be some "formula" to work it out for us, and taking an average of all 3 is the obvious way.
Obvious is rarely a good indicator of sensible. You can't just average "style", "substance" and "slant" to come up with an overall score. The overall score should not depend on your choice of categories.

Edit: The difference between "slant" and "overall" needs defining. "Slant" could be an overall score, or it could be pure subjective opinion -- say I would find a game that played well and looked good but I just had some arbitrary grudge against. I might give it zero for slant, but then give it a respectable overall score because I grudgingly admit it's a good game. We need to pick a definition and use it consistently.

Any chance we could get a link? I would suggest a phpbb mod called EasyMOD is makes life incredibly easy when it comes to installing mods.
Last time I did that it broke the forum. I make my own mods these days. It seems easier.

I completely agree with you, Andy T, we should give the recommendation award even to games with low ratings. Like I've said, it should be given to games we think are worth owning, because we all know that it's not about how much money is spent on development, who made the game and how good it looks when the original idea of a game is that it's intended for enjoyment. That's part of my reasoning for getting rid of overall game scores because we are not a normal games mag, we are here to clearly suggest what is worth playing, and that is of far more interest to any games player than a score.

Any chance we could get a link? I would suggest a phpbb mod called EasyMOD is makes life incredibly easy when it comes to installing mods.Yeah we use that on the Dream17 Forum, but modding the forum is truly the last of our concerns now. :p

Last time I did that it broke the forum. I make my own mods these days. It seems easier.

I do this sometimes, mostly with design side of things - never install other peoples templates.

But for big feature mods I just dont have the time. I got an xfire mod which is nice for adding people to xfire but decided to make my own for showing what game people are playing without having to worry about the xfire profile sigs.

The forum is now at [http://forum.realvg.org/] but this will change as doon as UK Plc let me change the smegging nameservers. It's very much bare bones at the moment. I've set the Dev forum for Admin Access Only so once you register email me and I'll make you an admin.

EDIT: the URL is now CHANGED!

The forum is temporarily at [http://www.dream17.co.uk/realvg/forum/] but this will change as doon as UK Plc let me change the smegging nameservers. It's very much bare bones at the moment. I've set the Dev forum for Admin Access Only so once you register email me and I'll make you an admin.Righto, sent an email to your "me@benpaddon" address.

The forum is temporarily at [http://www.dream17.co.uk/realvg/forum/] but this will change as doon as UK Plc let me change the smegging nameservers. It's very much bare bones at the moment. I've set the Dev forum for Admin Access Only so once you register email me and I'll make you an admin.
Activation via e-mail sucks. Please rectify this situation as soon as possible.

...
Alright, but it'll only be temporary for the time being.

Also, I picked a fantastic time to set up a forum we can all access, considering I'm going to be going away for a week on Sunday and won't be able to access it.

Now that's one forum I don't mind visiting on a regular basis.

Am I going to be an admin or not? I've been an admin for the Dream17 Forums but I'm not very a good one.

For the About Us section, Was thinking of a drop down menu of us.

The Group/Team

Reviewers -> (drop down to Everett) the page loads my Bio, and Avatar,

good idea or no?

Everyone who has registered so far has been Admin'd. The only exception at the moment is Bonz - he's only contributed one thing to the thread and I don't know if he plans on having an active involvement in the site development itself.

I don't yet know how much I'll be able to be involved in this project, due to university work loads... But, I'll try to contribute where possible

The forum is now at [http://forum.realvg.org/].

edit:
I don't yet know how much I'll be able to be involved in this project, due to university work loads... But, I'll try to contribute where possible
The important thing is that you're contributing.

edit II:
For the About Us section, Was thinking of a drop down menu of us.

The Group/Team

Reviewers -> (drop down to Everett) the page loads my Bio, and Avatar,

good idea or no?
I was thinking of a basic "Staff" page, alá Dream17, but a drop-down menu sounds good.

I think we should probably try to keep all RealVG discussion on the RealVG forum now. That way we can have multiple threads (and I can check it from work!). If anyone signs up for the forum and wants admin access just leave a comment here and one of us can make you an Admin.

ok ive signed up ;)

Admin me! :D

How do we deal with games like this, that will receive a low score but that could potentially be "RealVG Recommended"?
"Rental Recommended"?

Anyway, I guess I'll try to take a part in this. I haven't written any reviews in a good long time, but I'd much rather do so for a site like this than GameFAQs (for whatever reason, I mean, I respect GameFAQs and like it, but just don't feel it worthy of my contribution). As for coding or site layout, I wouldn't touch those with a 50-foot pole. Sorry. :p

Please keep in mind, everyone, that you too have the ability to add people to the "staff" usergroup once you've been made an admin.

Now, who the hell is Amlaur?

If you use overall score to determine which reviews you should read or what games you should buy, that is solved by using the 'recommended' award.Why not both though? You can look at all the recommended games as well as having ratings. If there are no ratings, very few people will view reviews for games which have just missed out on the recommendation, even if they're good games.

Please keep in mind, everyone, that you too have the ability to add people to the "staff" usergroup once you've been made an admin.

Now, who the hell is Amlaur?
Ben's girlfriend, Amy, IIRC.

PS. Admination please:p Thanks.

PPS. lol - The line went through the smiley.

PS. Admination please:p
Done'd .

I just e-mailed Ben about the whole admin thing, but I suppose I might as well ask here too.

ADMIN PLZ

You're already an admin :p

Now, who the hell is Amlaur?
That'd be Amy.

Ah, very well then.

Who's doing our avatars?

http://www.dream17.co.uk/realvg/forum
Why can't I see any threads or posts?

http://www.dream17.co.uk/realvg/forum
Why can't I see any threads or posts?
Maybe it's because you're supposed to be at www.realvg.org/forum.

edit: scratch that, it's because I failed to make you an admin.

Not sure if I'd contribute too much, but I'm interested in this and maybe I'll throw in my two cents about things.
Like... if you choose a pixel-y theme, I think that rounded off squares look better. Like THIS.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041026134808/ece4co.vis.ne.jp/shockwave8/cb1sw.dcr

I just hear a bunch of music.

edit: never mind, works fine in Safari

Not sure if I'd contribute too much, but I'm interested in this and maybe I'll throw in my two cents about things.
Like... if you choose a pixel-y theme, I think that rounded off squares look better. Like THIS.

They might, but I wasn't doing rounded ones at 1AM. I'll give them a try before the main skin is made.

Josh's Donkey Konga Review

thomasp's Colin McRae Rally 2005 Review

Have any of you thought about the problem that Cyclaws is our host for RealVG? He could read the contents of our board or even sabotage our project.

Have any of you thought about the problem that Cyclaws is our host for RealVG? He could read the contents of our board or even sabotage our project.
Surely that would be a breach of privacy?

But, if he does do such a thing, then he's very childish. Does he even know what RealVG is about?

You're right, Tom, it would be a breach of privacy but that wouldn't stop him. Afterall he has the right to check what's being uploaded to his server(s). And they are remarkably slow!

For the time-being we could use some of my space to hold the development forum. I have plenty of available space and monthly transfer allowance. We'd be taking up residence next to the Vader collection (most of his past published work) and the wonderful webcomic Rooms.

yeah i say we move it, you can use my space too if you want, im only at about half quota at tho mo which leave about 30gig/month free and easily ennough space.

And they are remarkably slow!
That would be my main argument against his server.

kitty (http://www.vimeo.com/clip:77426) =^_^=

Awwww! Beautiful kitty :D

Yeah! RealVG.org needs more kitties!
Perhaps in the top left and top right corners?

Not sure what that has to do with this...
but, it's excused because that's the cutest thing anywhere.

Have any of you thought about the problem that Cyclaws is our host for RealVG? He could read the contents of our board or even sabotage our project.
I don't think he'd be able to read the forum, the admin bit anyway. He wasn't the one who set the forum up and doesn't even have an account on the forum. I think it would be best if we found a better host, but for now I think we should stay put.

Not sure what that has to do with this...
but, it's excused because that's the cutest thing anywhere.
I especially like its reaction when the main synth line of the song comes in. :p

By the way, this was supposed to go in the 100%OT Marshmallow, ah well.

Have any of you thought about the problem that Cyclaws is our host for RealVG? He could read the contents of our board or even sabotage our project.

Why would he sabotage our project?

Because we're all ELITIST. :p

Because we're all ELITIST. :p
Because we are the evil, secret society that tries to take over the world by holding all the puppets' strings.

I've used him as a host for a bit now, and you'd be amazed at what he can't do. Either he can't read password protected directories or he's a liar, and either he can't access our SQL databases or else he's a very, very good liar.

And I thought he knew about OD anyway, so what would it matter if he could read the forum? (If he doesn't, then let's hope he can't read out referrer logs.)

Sorry but I don't know what to think about him when all I see about him is negative in here.

I for one like him really. He seels like a nice enough guy. A little immature at times, granted, but criticising an adolescent for being immature is like criticising a giraffe for being tall.

What if we were to let him in here provided he kept a sensible head on his shoulders? I'm talking about OD.

Hmm... RealVG isn't loading up. And not just the forum, the whole thing.

Edit: Now it's just the forum

"phpBB : Critical Error

Could not connect to the database"

Must be server problems, all the other websites he hosts like Sketchpad and Dream17 are also going kaput.

I don't see anything wrong with Cyclaws, he's part of the Dream17 staff and he seems to do his job well.

great.....

Working again.

Traxada, are you still doing our avatars?

I think I'm meant to be doing them now.:p

Although I'm still waitoing to find out exactly what you people want, except for Paul and SupSuper.

I'll send you pictures of me and Amy when we get back to Luton.

The elusive me: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2355/img029131uk.png

i dont have a recent photo... if all else fails you can have the one of me at 17... hahaha

We're using photos of ourself for avatars? thought we were doing avatars of what we wanted.

We're using photos of ourself for avatars? thought we were doing avatars of what we wanted.Well, at last count it's "get philby to draw cariacatures of ourselves based on photos"

We're using photos of ourself for avatars? thought we were doing avatars of what we wanted.I only posted a picture of me so that he could draw me an avatar.

Me:
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/230/bonz48fk.jpg

The elusive me: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2355/img029131uk.png
Great. You're Ben. That won't get confusing.

Well, at last count it's "get philby to draw cariacatures of ourselves based on photos"

Ah, so it is

Was confused there, thank you for clearing it up

I only posted a picture of me so that he could draw me an avatar.

Ah, I understand now, thanks you two

My picture,

- http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8618/787497410m8bm.jpg

Just a note, my hair color is orange and my shirt color is red, not pink.

Nice pic, Ev. That should look good as an avatar. Or should I say Evatar :)

Here's my pic, Philby. You'll probably want to redraw me so I'm looking at the camera.
http://www.wurmz.eclipse.co.uk/stuff/pics/pic3.gif

The Cyclaws Network's MySQL server is down again. Maintenance? Checking for database corruption, hmmm?

New priority: get a new server, stat! :p

To make matters worse, this time it doesn't seem to be a generic problem like last time but something weird and mysterious only affecting Dream17 (where RealVG currently is), and according to Cyclaws the mySQL database seems fine.

It's the MySQL server that seems to be the problem. Something must have changed for this to happen, so Cyclaws must have an idea of what it is.

Nice pic, Ev. That should look good as an avatar. Or should I say Evatar :)

Thank you for the compliment :)

I'm clean shaven there, but currently I'm letting my beard grow, not sure how I'll look (possibly dwarf) since I've not fully gone though the full process.

Hmm. Looking in the Cpanel, the Access accounts for the databases have been deleted. RealVG and Dream17 can't access their respective databases because the usernames and passwords they're trying to use no longer exist.

Huh. Dan, can you have a look?

Wow, how did Cyclaws miss that?
Better yet, how did the access acounts just disappear like that?

Anyways I put them back so everything should work as usual.

Is it me, or is the entire RealVG.org domain down at the moment - I'm getting a "Connection refused" message?


Cyclaws' server certainly seems stable :rolleyes:


Edit:
It seems to be working again...

my offer still stands....

It frequently goes online and offline for me

I just got 5 mins of zero sized reply errors on the forum, but it seems OK now.

We really should get a proper host before we go live. Downtime = unprofessional.

Also, ask for our hosting fees back, since our site has experienced so many problems ;)

Hmm. Looking in the Cpanel, the Access accounts for the databases have been deleted. RealVG and Dream17 can't access their respective databases because the usernames and passwords they're trying to use no longer exist.

Huh. Dan, can you have a look?
I think any chance of Cyclaws being invited to OD just vanished entirely.

Downtime = unprofessional.
Hmm... really?
Sheezyart = Downtime
Sheezyart = unprofessional.
FurAffinity = Downtime
FurAffinity = unprofessional.
Huh. Guess so. ;)

RealVG.org's always worked for me.

In any case, the fact that RealVG is currently a "sub-site" of Dream17 is as unprofessional as it can get, so we clearly need our own. :p

see above :p

You're more likely to get a reply if you mail Ben since he's always off somewhere. :p

RealVG.org's always worked for me.
The homepage seems to work most of the time - it's just the forums that die regularly.

see above :p
You're willing to host?

As long as if it takes up all my space everyone chips in to upgrade then yes.
I've had my fair share of host problems but not as frequently as what we're on now, and its a hell of a lot faster :D For the moment with development and all I cant see it taking up more anywhere near my remaining space tho ;)

I doubt it'll take a lot of space since it'll be mostly text. :p

indeed, DB space is more of the issue, but if reviews are converted to HTML through PHP and saved on FTP with the location in the database that wont be a problem either.

indeed, DB space is more of the issue, but if reviews are converted to HTML through PHP and saved on FTP with the location in the database that wont be a problem either.
It'd mean no search facility, mind.

well, you can still have search, its just alot slower.... but a fair point. Then again, you could break down the files into search indexes and use them... but maybe just a bigger database is the answer.... (looks at DB max size...)


Edit:

ahha! it looks like database space is unlimited :D Now that I didnt know.....

Just out of interest, how much is Cyclaws charging us per year for this hosting?

£0 a month for two years.

what happens after two years?

We'd have to renew.

It depends on whether or not Cyc chooses to renew his reseller account. If he doesn't, we have to look elsewhere.

Seriously? £0? How did you manage that?

I suppose if we're not paying for it, we shouldn't really complain about the service...

It depends on whether or not Cyc chooses to renew his reseller account. If he doesn't, we have to look elsewhere.
It might be worth asking him how much it would cost to take over that reseller account. If the service isn't bad for the next two years then it'd be a good thing to get hold of rather than relocating half a dozen websites.

Sounds good.

For those not involved in the project, the site is now live:

http://www.realvg.org

Out of interest (reading the last few posts), where's the site hosted at the moment?

...and where're your secret forums? :p

...and where're your secret forums? :p

http://www.realvg.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=67
Tee hee...:p

I was going to say the site's a bit slow, but that's my connection.

Very nice stuff. I liked Andrew's HL2 review.

I was going to say the site's a bit slow, but that's my connection.

Very nice stuff. I liked Andrew's HL2 review.
Nope, it is a bit slow. Server's been going bad recently

*Blames whoever owns the server*

I think it's Cyclaws, I'll go poke him on MSN.

I think it's Cyclaws, I'll go poke him

0_0

...

I just got the most interesting PM in the RealVG forums.

Re: Mtlangelus
Hi,
I'm new here, how's it going?

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things as a meaningful unity" - Albert Einstein

---
Stephanie
http://stephanie2.bravehost.com

You do know RealVG has its own forums :p (although I do like the plugging :D)

That would appear to be a spambot, I didn't get a PM but if others have, the user can always be binned.

No kidding! :P
But there's no secret forum in which I can post pm's I have received without letting the person who pm'd me know I posted about it. :p

Even tho it's most likely a spambot, I still have my doubts.

Oh yeah... right... you're not an admin - I forgot about that :p

I just got the most interesting PM in the RealVG forums.

Re: Mtlangelus
Hi,
I'm new here, how's it going?

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things as a meaningful unity" - Albert Einstein

---
Stephanie
http://stephanie2.bravehost.comMad got the same PM, so spam it is. :p

Spam promoting budhism? Have we ran out of space for enlarged pènises already? :rolleyes:

Just buy bigger pants.

I got the same message to my Mr. Stabby account. I don't know how she managed to get past my random question: "Are you a human being? Yes or No?" Could be a manual spam bot of some kind. OR, it could be a real person who's more interested about spreading information about Buddhism than videogames. Perhaps he/she/it is avoiding admins?