All 2D worms games on the PC have had the annoying bug that if you double-tap your jump key to do a backflip (back jump in WA/WWP) and the first tap is just before your retreat time runs out while the 2nd tap is just after, the game ignores the 2nd tap and does a regular forward jump, often with disastrous results.

So how about fixing this decades-old bug?

(of course, this is more of an oversight/quirk than a bug but i'm trying to be more persuasive!) :)

This is why in WA, you do the mini backflip instead in those situations. It starts with a double backspace tap (and then enter) so that even if you're too late with the last one or two taps, you still end up either at the spot you were standing in beforehand or a backflip's distance behind it. It's a skill.

The game OP means

is in fact

Worms Revolution.

This is why in WA, you do the mini backflip instead in those situations. It starts with a double backspace tap (and then enter) so that even if you're too late with the last one or two taps, you still end up either at the spot you were standing in beforehand or a backflip's distance behind it. It's a skill.

The mini backflip is identical in usefulness as the regular backwards jump. It's just a visual change.

So the best way to do that is to press both Enter and Backspace simultaneously.

Is this topic about Worms Revolution? I'm no longer sure.

Is this topic about Worms Revolution? I'm no longer sure.

it really bothers you?

you just have to time your jumps correctly now because they dumbed down the game a little with only one jump key, it's not a major problem...

The game OP means

is in fact

Worms Revolution.

http://nach.tasvideos.org/franpa-alert/franpa-code-orange.png

The mini backflip is identical in usefulness as the regular backwards jump. It's just a visual change.

So the best way to do that is to press both Enter and Backspace simultaneously.

http://nach.tasvideos.org/franpa-alert/franpa-code-yellow.pnghttp://nach.tasvideos.org/franpa-alert/franpa-code-blue.png

The case is, KRD, you generally like to pop in to threads to bring in Worms Armageddon because of how much you like the game or something. I'm not misinformed, you just attempted to turn this thread about W:A and WWP talk again from the line the OP mentioned in his post. He just said "It's always been like this since they invented the backjump" without knowing there was some sort of a work-around, but sure enough in this thread he requests the issue to be fixed in Worms Revolution, not to be told how to work around it in earlier games with completely different jump mechanics, Sir.

Thus, allow me to bring in Worms Reloaded instead for "no reason".

"This is why in Worms Reloaded, you have two different keys for two jumps. The problem practically doesn't exist there."

It's not a bug, you have to learn to predict the retreat time so that you don't make these mistakes.

My face when I read Thurbo's posts:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nMM_s6W5vVM/UCQEJOGJQlI/AAAAAAAAPCU/6xI6mN7iGhY/s640/Edward-Norton-Closing-Laptop.gif

While I don't know if this is necessarily a bug I definitely wouldn't ever consider it a feature or a skill that was actually worth testing. It wouldn't kill the game to keep checking a few frames after retreat time ends for a second press of the jump key if you pressed it once just before retreat time ended.

It's not a bug. You ran out of time and so your input after the timer reaches zero is not accepted. Stands to reason.

While I don't know if this is necessarily a bug I definitely wouldn't ever consider it a feature or a skill that was actually worth testing. It wouldn't kill the game to keep checking a few frames after retreat time ends for a second press of the jump key if you pressed it once just before retreat time ended.

It's not about it killing the game, of course, it's about keeping something that has proven to be manageable over the years. If it makes it possible for me to be a marginally better player than someone else because I've mastered this skill, I'll simply see it as a feature with the potential to (by however little) increase the depth of the gameplay. It just doesn't affect anyone so gravely that it would warrant changing, especially since many games in the series actually offer a way to avoid the undesirable consequences of not being used to it.

Thurbo's generously contributed description of how it works in Reloaded sounds like a pretty good feature suggestion for Revolution to me. :p

It's not about it killing the game, of course, it's about keeping something that has proven to be manageable over the years. If it makes it possible for me to be a marginally better player than someone else because I've mastered this skill, I'll simply see it as a feature with the potential to (by however little) increase the depth of the gameplay. It just doesn't affect anyone so gravely that it would warrant changing, especially since many games in the series actually offer a way to avoid the undesirable consequences of not being used to it.

Thurbo's generously contributed description of how it works in Reloaded sounds like a pretty good feature suggestion for Revolution to me. :p
You do not understand what the word depth means. Also, I reject the idea that something should not be improved further because it's "manageable" in its current state.

Let me try to explain as clearly as possible why this particular issue is bad. Everybody always seems to agree in hardcore oldskool gaming communities that more skill = more better, but sometimes you have to be careful because implementing certain skills can come with downsides that do more harm to the game than good. The context is always important.

Anyway, the old Worms games, especially the second generation ones can actually be somewhat overbearing to learn how to play, especially after over a decade of feature additions. Adding in even more jump combos for players to learn is just yet another barrier to entry that new players have to overcome. Sometimes this is worth it, for example I think the backflip added a lot of good to the series and is worth having to learn an extra command because it adds a lot to how the game plays.

But let's take a look specifically at the problem with this retreat time issue. The game says that pressing enter twice does a backjump. Great, except under a very specific circumstance (right at the end of retreat time) it actually doesn't do this at all and does a forward jump instead; this otherwise very simple system has a very particular exception case. We all know and understand why it works this way, but the Worms series is great for being games that involve a number of predictable and very simple to learn but hard to master systems where a large amount of the appeal comes from the emergent gameplay that results when you put these together. One thing the series is absolutely not renowned for is having to memorise a number of exception cases where certain things behave differently under very specific conditions, and alternative keyboard commands that exist only to allow you to perform the same commands under these exception cases. Memorising such things is a skill, but is it one we want to encourage? Punching your opponent in the face is a great skill for ChessBoxing, but is it one that has place in Chess?

The point is that retaining this "skill" has a number of downsides that outweigh the benefits of leaving it in. The actual skill used here has no place in Worms, and goes against everything the game was designed to achieve. Sure, this particular issue is so incredibly minor that I don't think it's actually worth the cost of getting someone to fix it, but a solution for it exists that doesn't involve making the already quite long list of controls even longer, and doesn't require players to memorise and deal with a particular esoteric behaviour in an otherwise simple situation.

If this particular skill is such a good thing to have then why don't we add more of them? Lets make it so that if you have 17 seconds of turn time remaining then for the duration of that second the left and right keys are remapped to Ctrl and Alt. Obviously this is a good feature because the pro players will be able to recognise and deal with this and will give them another way to distinguish themselves from the noob scrubs. It would be totally manageable and that's good enough.

Unfortunately I've seen an awful lot of hardcore game communities that will defend all sorts of strange unintended esoteric behaviours in their game engine of choice to the death, and then wonder why all of the new players play the latest "dumbed down for casuals" instalments instead. Are the benefits of these behaviours worth the smaller number of players? Sometimes, yes, yes they are. But this is not one of them, it's not even close.

"You know you have reached perfection in design, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to be taken away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

This happened to one of my opponents in a 3-player darkside game last night. He threw himself in the water by mistake. The guy was close to death anyway but it meant that I didn't have to waste a turn killing him and could concentrate on my remaining opponent.

I wonder whether the people defending this quirk would actually rejoice in winning a game due to your opponent throwing himself in the water unintentionally. Some of us feel really cheap winning that way and prefer to win through clever tactics or impressive grenade/bazooka shots. I guess some people love winning through dirty little cheap tricks though. It is no surprise to me that the same people defending this quirk that allows cheap wins are the same who complain about the new rope that makes cheap kills from across the map harder to pull off.

I agree that this can't be considered a bug. It's a design choice that isn't inherently bad, it stands to reason that you can no longer move after the turn ends.

The real problem here is that they are using the same button for two very different types of jump, for no real reason. That can be considered bad design, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be fixed.

Personally, if this came in as a bug to me I would just fix it. I seriously doubt this was designed in perposly, it is just a side effect of how the end of turn was implemented in combination with the implementation of a double tap to reverse the jump direction.

I would suggest that if a second tap occurs within the correct double tap time that the entire jump request be rejected. (as the control was too late)

I don't know if this happens to be a problem in W:Rev, but it definitely does not need fixing in WA, I've never seen a soul complain about it in 12 years of playing. It really wouldn't be worth the time to 'fix' over there.

And Melon, when you say worms isn't well-known for having to memorize tricks, exception cases, etc., that might be the perception of worms, but that is exactly how WA is played at the higher levels. Just check out intermediate matches at www.normalnonoobs.com or www.cwtsite.com, games often hinge on knowing the exact behavior of each weapon, game logic, etc.

I wonder whether the people defending this quirk would actually rejoice in winning a game due to your opponent throwing himself in the water unintentionally. Some of us feel really cheap winning that way and prefer to win through clever tactics or impressive grenade/bazooka shots. I guess some people love winning through dirty little cheap tricks though.

No. It's your own mistake if you do that. Basically the same thing as killing your own worm accidently with shotgun when shooting down from a ledge. You can learn not to make these mistakes.

It wouldn't kill the game to keep checking a few frames after retreat time ends for a second press of the jump key if you pressed it once just before retreat time ended.
Yeah it probably wouldn't be a huge deal to me either if it was like that, but I still prefer it the way it is now.

There is nothing wrong with the behavior as it is right now. When your retreat time is over, it's over. If you did not input a flip command fast enough, it only stands to reason that it will be interpreted as a jump command. If you are frantically using up every millisecond of your retreat time and not quick enough with that double-enter flip command, it is your fault if you jump to your doom. This isn't a game flaw.

The real problem is that both jump types have been mapped to the same key. There's been times in Revolution in which I tapped enter twice just a *tad* too slowly and did a forward jump instead.

It's not a bug, and it's not a problem. If people are dumb enough to risk a back-jump that close to the wire, they have only themselves to blame if they fail.

Well personally I think it would be cool if there was a separate button for a backflip.