Hello all old Worms lovers :)

I see there is still active community behind this such old game. I'm wondering why Team17 doesn't notice this one of their most succesful game (and in my opinion one of the most funny game of all time) anymore? There is no information about old Worms titles in their website and it seems they don't sell the old titles anymore. No old Worms games in the PC section of their website etc. In my opinion old Worms games, especially Worms Armageddon with latest patch and a huge amount of user generated content, are still better than the new titles. Worms Reloaded is playable game, but in my opinion it's far away from the quality of Worms Armageddon.

Surely Team17 is a game company and the main purpose of a company is to make money. Worms Armageddon might not be well selling title anymore but I don't understand why it seems they have almost completely discarded this game :/ Worms Armageddon website is still there (with latest beta patch link also!) and these forums, but it seems old worms fans "have to" find them by themselves. Is Team17 afraid of old fans who might recommend the old worms games to the new players :P?

Sadly too many game companies focus only new titles which are not always better than the old ones.

Their relationship is most likely "it's complicated".

There could be a million reasons for leaving WA behind to focus on newer titles. Examples (off the top of my head in about 15 seconds) could include trying to move towards self publishing, something that could potentially be not possible with WA due to existing publishing contracts, it could be due to large piracy rates making WA a lost cause to spend more money and time on, it could be that adding some features would have required such as extensive rewrite of WAs old engine that they're better off just making a new one from scratch in which case they might as well make a whole new game etc etc etc.

Unfortunately, I believe it's extremely unlikely that we will ever find out, game companies don't get any benefits from going into large amounts of detail about their business strategy to their customers. This means all we can do is guess. However, I believe Team17 are smart enough to know that if focusing more on WA would be a winning proposition for them, that they'd be doing it. So from that I can only conclude that it isn't, although we may never know the specifics.

Well, the game is not discarded, people are still working on it and they are still making updates. But those people aren't from T17, T17 gave the source code to a guy on the forums.

I guess it went like this:

Deadcode liked WA and, being skilled hacker and WA fan, decided to mod it.

Team17 kept making new titles.

Deadcode managed to freak everyone out.

Team17 was impressed and decided to hand him source code for one little game, thinking it's not a big deal.

A few years later, Deadcode with his new partner, Cybershadow, made WA the best Worms title and Team17 can't do anything since they kept releasing 3D Worms.

But you gotta admit, they never really forgot about WA - it's quite obvious when you look at WR. I'd say WR was Team17's attempt to outpace WA patch, but with no success. WR uses some new weapon ideas from Worms2D.info, it's 2D, it has similar control scheme as WA and uses even some older weapons. Then there are same map themes, like cheese. They even made Rope Race official, though WR's rope is useless.

Keep in mind shipping same game for ten years is not cheap and wouldn't make much profit. It was a lot easier for them to release WR - attention from media and all.

Team17 simply has game-releasing powers (that's how they spend and make money), while Deadcode and Cybershadow have game-pimping powers (costs nothing, gives nothing). One can't have both.

They used to run an online shop until about... what, a year ago now? They sold the older games there. The fact that they were making so little money from any of their older games that they weren't even worth personally selling should tell you how interested they are in properly advertising WA.

team 17 should work in a new "Worms Ulimate armageddon" once beta 4.0 is out (?)

They did already, Worms 2: Armageddon.

I doubt Team17 could be competitive enough to win people over once W:A v4.0 comes out (They're probably making them delay the 4.0 release right now! to ensure sales of there future games xD).

They did already, Worms 2: Armageddon.
Seriously? seriously. You seriously think W2:A is a remake of WA?

Seriously? seriously. You seriously think W2:A is a remake of WA?

Well, it is. Without a doubt.

I think I wouldn't be too far off when I say that after what's generally known as WA 4.0, it would become possible to make it Steam compatible, and that they may indeed sell it through Steam.

Well, it is. Without a doubt.

I could list hundreds of reasons why it definitely is not.
Not even if Team17 really intended to release it as a remake of W:A, but I also doubt that.

I think I wouldn't be too far off when I say that after what's generally known as WA 4.0, it would become possible to make it Steam compatible, and that they may indeed sell it through Steam.

I'm not sure if that's going to be so easy. What's with all the work Deadcode and CyberShadow have spent on expanding this game?

Worms Armageddon - so popular and yet so unprofitable

C'mon now, I think if Team17 wanted to sell it, they could. Most likely giving Deadcode and Cybershadow a cut in the profits of course.

Not holding my breath for a 2d sequel. Once upon a time when WWP came out, people were looking forward to a TRUE worms armageddon sequel. v4.0 is the only spinoff we will see, most likely. Now that w2:armageddon is out for arcade on xbox and ps3, they've finally bled the 2d franchise for all it was worth.

C'mon now, I think if Team17 wanted to sell it, they could. Most likely giving Deadcode and Cybershadow a cut in the profits of course.

How about giving support for it? They'd probably be losing money if they had to give support for WA as it is today. Another reason why a rewritten WA could make it viable again as a sellable product.

How about giving support for it? They'd probably be losing money if they had to give support for WA as it is today. Another reason why a rewritten WA could make it viable again as a sellable product.

But that would seem rather boorish to me, seizing the years work of two people and make profit out of it.

Also, rewrite... what for? You've already got W:A, so what do you want? The very same game with new graphics? Or... what?

I've been thinking about how best to answer this question considering that it will be over analysed and quoted back at me for as long as I live :)

Having said that, the "it's complicated" answer is a good one. We love WA and we are really proud of how the game is regarded not only by Worms fans but also by gamers in general and the work that both Deadcode and Cybershadow have done has been amazing.

Now we have a desire here to make our back catalog of games available to a wider audience and in an ideal world that would mean doing something with WA too. But Team17 is out to make money and WA does not make us money any more and if we decided to re release on say Steam then I imagine comments like "money grabbing *******s" etc would flow forevermore.

Why would the current WA players go out an buy the game again when it currently functions very well now?

Now, this is not to say that we've given up any hope of sorting something out and I have regular chats with Cybershadow talking about different ideas, I just don't expect that we will see anything happen very quickly.

Sorry I can't say any more on it really.

Well, thanks for the explanation Bill, we've been spoiled with the progress this game has made and is still making both official and unofficial.

Why would the current WA players go out an buy the game again when it currently functions very well now?
One of WA's main problems is its difficulty of purchase. Nowadays, buying boxed games is rare, and doing so online is even rarer. This is the only way for a new player to get WA legitimately. I speculate that if a decent full download of WA was available for purchase online, new players would not be daunted by the difficulty of purchase and WA would immediately start making money.

I believe you already know this, Bill, but it would be nice if the other Team17 members understood this too. This is the state of WA right now.

I think what he really meant was "Who would be interested in WA that doesn't already own the game".

WA is an incredible game, all of my friends played it at some point, it's a title which pretty much every PC gamer knows..
In my opinion a re-release would work 100% - of course haters gonna hate but there's gonna be a ton of people saying "I love you Team17 for re-releasing this game, I lost/broke my disc years ago and couldn't play it anymore" and things along those lines. :) You never know until you try.

And what Lex said of course.

From my experience, Worms World Party is more known than Worms Armageddon :p

Why would the current WA players go out an buy the game again when it currently functions very well now?

I'd buy a dozen gift copies to give out to people at pretty much random. Does that count? :p

I think what he really meant was "Who would be interested in WA that doesn't already own the game".

Call it Worms Armageddon - New Edition and throw in a couple pictures of Ninja's as DLC. Millions will buy it then!

a re-release of W:A on Steam brings so much good to the table. an easier way to buy/install the game with Steam solves so many people's problems with obtaining/maintaining this great game.
offering this service alone justifies the cost I feel.

now, other current W:A players can voice their opinion, but for me personally, I would gladly and respectfully buy the game again if it helps Deadcode and Cybershadow for all the hard work that they have done to improve this wonderful game. heck, if you can tie a W:A re-release on Steam with a future update from them, that's a very easy sell for current W:A players and perfectly justifiable.

sure W:A currently functions very well now, but buying the game again through Steam brings so much potential:

easier to buy the game, install the game
reward all the extra hard work put into this game
expand the community, very likely larger than what W2:A has


anyone calling you "money grabbers" forevermore would be misguided, and I doubt many of these people even exist (less than 1%). too many people just want to play W:A again, and many of us current players would like to see W:A expand and reward those who have made W:A what it is today.

I understand you're saying nothing will happen quickly, but the fact that you're thinking about it is great :) I am willing to help in any way possible, and I'm sure others would too.

I believe that the second generation of Worms games (W2, WA, WWP) still are in a difficult publishing rights situation.
AFAIK, currently Infogrames/Atari own the publishing rights (who bought up Hasbro, who in turn bought MicroProse)
Also, Spadge once talked about 3rd-party developers who were involved back then.
Furthermore, there are still (budget) companies like Trygames, Sold-Out or Greenpepper, who may too complicated the situation.

But the most important factor:
T17 would throw a direct competitor of their current Steam game Worms Reloaded (and WUM & Worms Crazy Golf to some extent) on the market.
The question is if the ratio of potential WA sales to the loss of potential WR/WUM/WCG sales is feasible.
A port to Steam would need additional resources (money and manpower), which can't be done by DC/CS alone.

Having said all that, I want to see all T17 games on Steam. Even emulated Amiga games.
And I'd buy them all.
I suggest you fix the publishing rights situation by fully buying back everything, so you own all the rights to all your original IP.

But Team17 is out to make money and WA does not make us money any more and if we decided to re release on say Steam then I imagine comments like "money grabbing *******s" etc would flow forevermore.

Why would the current WA players go out an buy the game again when it currently functions very well now?

Seems to me that the reason WA doesn't make you money anymore is because there are so few places where you can buy it new nowadays.

Since DC & CS have been updating the game, the Wormnet population has steadily increased, as have the number of pirates asking for help on the forum. :p

Don't want to be called bad names? Just pay DC & CS to keep updating the game after you re-release it on Steam or whatever.

Yeah, I'm sure there's all kinds of roadblocks involving newer games & publishing rights & how much to pay the help & so on, but WA is just SUCH a quality title, I'm nearly 100% sure that there's SOME way to milk a few more profitable sales out of it! http://forum.team17.co.uk/images/icons/icon14.gif

Just pay DC & CS
They both don't live in the EU, which makes that complicated, AFAIR.

Since DC & CS have been updating the game, the Wormnet population has steadily increased, as have the number of pirates asking for help on the forum. :p

In fact I've seen the number of population decrease in the recent years, but a re-release on Steam might actually get people back to play.

In fact I've seen the number of population decrease in the recent years, but a re-release on Steam might actually get people back to play.

In fact there are statistics about how many unique IPs connected to WormNET in a certain period of time and they say otherwise. The population is growing, slowly but steadily.

I don't see more than 50 people playing at a time these days. Playing Shoppa, of course, not Worms. I'm certain it used to be a lot more 5 years ago.

http://stats.worms2d.info/

Yeah so at the end of each month there is on average, 15,200 unique IP's connecting to WormNET?

Precisely.

Am I supposed to believe that? Are you kidding?

I don't know much about the dimensions here though. All I can say is that there's very few people on every time I play, and all I see in the list is shoppa.

All of those statistics are updated regularly and are very accurate.

Shopper is popular, but it is far from being the only game played. This page shows the schemes hosted by HostingBuddy (http://worms2d.info/HostingBuddy) (arguably popular enough to represent a general consensus of the communities gaming habits): http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html

It still appears tp be the only scheme I ever see in the list... I mean, just look at the shoppa statistics you just presented me in relation to the other schemes:

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/Thurbo1/schemes1.png?t=1316181451

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/Thurbo1/schemes2.png?t=1316181446

lol, it's in fact at 50%. That's quite severe to me, I do have to say...

Any normal types of matches are at ~10%. Sad, sad facts.

I would not deny that it's a dominant game-type, but there is nothing wrong with any of the schemes in that list. I'm not a fan of rope-based schemes but I am more than happy to see the game is still attracting this much attention. Hosting your own games or arranging one via the in-game chat lobby is a sure way to find what you're looking for - with over 2000 players using WormNET throughout each day, you should not have any trouble.

"Dabble and Fidget"?!?
http://www.clker.com/cliparts/6/5/b/f/11949864691020941855smiley114.svg.thumb.png

Details on all schemes in that list (and more) can be found here: http://worms2d.info/Schemes

Details on all schemes in that list (and more) can be found here: http://worms2d.info/Schemes
Thanks. I never knew some of this schemes even existed. Maybe this is why they are not played often.

Or this:
Dabble & Fidget, or just Dabble, consists mainly of the weakest available weapons, lacking even the Bazooka and the Grenade.

I found this one particularly funny:
CrappyCr8s is the proto-shopper scheme invented by CheechLizard in 1999/2000 for Worms 2 and Worms Armageddon. No one plays this because no one else enjoys 'fun'.

This thread has turned from "What's Team17's relationship with WA?" into "What's Thurbo's relationship with WA?". Splitting (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49156).