How come Team17 continuously releases new patches to Worms Armageddon and none of them bring back the rankings system? During the blackout period immediately following the dismantling of the ranking system, Team17 promised to fix the hacking problem and restore rankings and leagues as usual. For five years none of that has happened. Wasn't Deadcode hired in order to remedy this problem? Why do new patches add 'thought bubbles' and 'backwards walking' and none of them even attempt to restore the rankings system? It cannot be so difficult. Has Team17 even stopped pretending to work on the patch? If they do still intend to fulfill their promises, could we please have a status report on the rankings patch? I have spoken with many older players and they express enthusiasm at returning to worms, but without the rankings system they see no point, and I cannot but agree with them. Having myself played this title and others since their initial release, I demand either an earnest effort or an honest answer, preferably both. Thank you,

tHEkiNgPin

The reason why, is that rankings need to be secure. This is so NOBODY can hack them. Deadcode is possibly working and testing different systems now.

I don't know if Deadcode was actually hired (=payed).
I rather think he is doing the patching in his spare time.

its a spare time thing, although he does have T17 Staff forum status now. I think hes been working on making the client as secure as possible before looking at the server side stuff, which is fair enough I guess.

Good too see you around again cass

Thanks for the responses, but I would really prefer an official take on this issue. After all, thousands of games have secure login systems, how hard can it possibly be for worms to be one of them, especially with all the time since they first promised this? Also, Deadcode was hired (?) a while ago, if in all this time he hasn't had a spare day or two to make this system work, then perhaps its time to hire (?) someone more capable or dedicated? WormNET and its patrons deserve no less.

I should've expected as much, how typical of Team17 to simply ignore anything having to do with rankings. More of the same? Their drunken beer garden photos may have left the site, but the disregard to reality remains; like a bad hangover from yesteryear.

(I'm going to keep bumping this thread from time to time until I get an official take on the situation by the way)

I don't know if this counts as official, but i can at least clarify a bit. Deadcode isn't employed by Team17. He is a wormer who was given permission to make additions to W:A at his own leisure, provided he released an official update that included XP support.

Team17 employed a guy called Sacha (nick: CleanAir) to fix WormNET rankings, who did little other than attempt to block the use of Annelid's snooper, and is no longer working for them, presumably because he was useless.

Deadcode has said that he would like to create a new WormNET rankings system that is not only more secure than the old one, but that supports a half-decent representation of the schemes that are frequently played along with the old league schemes, but he only has access to the W:A client sourcecode and not the WormNET server itself or the software that runs on it, so there isn't really much he can do yet. In the meantime, however, he may as well release little features here and there to make the game more interesting, such as thought bubbles and backwalking.

As for future prospects, it's unlikely that Team17 are going to spend any time or money on a game they released just short of a decade ago that no longer earns them any sales revenue. From a business perspective, they may as well just burn money. So for the time being, unless Team17 give Deadcode the source code to the server software and access to the server, and Deadcode has the time to do the necessary work without pay and in his own time, you'll have to make do with one of the community-based online leagues (www.cl2k.org www.first-blood.co.uk).

Can't Deadcode just make a new server? I don't see why he needs to get the source code from Team17. It is very easy to make a replica of the server and it does not take very long to do so. He could make the server even better and add new features to it if he wanted.

I'm sure he still has some way to contact the people at Team17. If he talked to them and presented them an even better server (something with ranks), I doubt they would reject it.

With the source code to worms and to it's server, he would be able to do anything he wanted to.

dito + is there a reason t17 hasn't given him access, sowtrae and coding stuff for wn?

Etho - Yeah, that would probably be the easiest solution, but it'd still be something he'd do for free and in his own time, so no-one should expect him to do it. I personally think that our most likely chance of online ranks and secure logins would be for someone such as yourself, CyberShadow, me, etc to make a WormNET server. Maybe we could even send the source code to Deadcode/Team17 so they could evaluate it and use it as the official one. The only problem would be that we'd need a W:A update to implement the client side of any security features.

Actually, another problem may be that CyberShadow uses Delphi, although most of it could be done in PHP anyway.

Actually, another problem may be that CyberShadow uses Delphi, although most of it could be done in PHP anyway.

Writing my own IRC and HTTP server sounded challenging ^_^
Besides, having a densely intergated IRC/HTTP server greatly reduces the risk of it being hacked/etc. I'm not sure how WormNET2 works - but that one has a bunch of extra commands used for authentification/encryption which aren't present in your every day IRC server. I think they modded UnrealIRCd to connect to their MySQL (or w/e) database.

As for ranks/secure logins: would implementing them in a 3rd-party server actually be a smart move? I know that a part of the community will instantly love it and move to the new server - but what about the rest? A great deal of people play for fun, and don't really need neither ranked channels nor secure logins. Also, how will the newbies know of the new server?

Actually, the above problems can be somewhat amended by placing a bot on WormNET to continuously advertise the new server. But I really doubt Team17 would like the idea of trying to move the entire player-base to a fan-made server...

On a side note, there's a project for a WormKit module to add integration of First Blood ranks to WormNET - and also submitting replays with one click. It's still at the design level, though. W:A's network code is hard to cope with.

what can i say to u guys otherthen why not ask team17, u know email them. if u guys really want to, maybe u guys can make the server and t17 will replace the old 1 with it, if it's all good and shiny. If u guys are up to it, i'd be glad. wish i could help but codings hard and unless i learn i'm useless :p

We probably will do Ghost, if someone gets to the stage where we actually have something to email them about ;).

Cyber - the middle two paragraphs there could be addressed by a combination of getting Deadcode to include a new serverlist.htm in an update, and/or seeing if Team17 will replace the current WormNET server with the new one. I agree that a spambot in #AG wouldn't be the best idea ;).

As for the last paragraph, i had a very similar idea myself a while back, and discussed it with Kiros and Flamie. My plan was to create a new frontend for W:A (WOLF - Worms Online Lightweight Frontend) that would work like snooper, but with the ability to host/join games, login to your FB/CL2K account from it (and any future leagues that used the specified XML DTD) and have your various rankings displayed when another player also using the program right-clicked your name, plus any other features that would be useful, for example a tournament hosting utility whereby you select the contestants from the user list and it handles random name matching, etc. Simple idea, but useful.

Deadcode has already agreed to add the support i'd need to W:A for hosting/joining/launching games from the program, and even registering it to handle the custom wagp:// protocol i came up with so i could make a web-based version and have a hyperlink launch W:A and join/host a game (eg, <a href="wagp://62.252.46.12:17011/">Shopper</a>).

This approach would give a much wider range of options, as it doesn't rely on W:A's networking code, or W:A at all really, leaving us to add any new features we wanted. It'd use WormNET for everything it can do now, and any extra stuff would run via the clansfx server (which is on a 1000Mbps connection, so should be able to handle it ;)), and would be implemented via PHP scripting and MySQL where needed so would be compatible with the WormNET server (Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) PHP/4.3.10-16) for migration if official support were ever given.

The security side of it would be quite intrinsic to the league support system really. The rankings themselves would be from FB/CL2K/etc, so would only be as hackable and cheatable as they currently are. You'd have to enter your login details for each league into the WOLF client, which would contact the league web servers and request your rankings data, for it to then be displayable to everyone else (I might even get it to handle this data via the clansfx server rather than the WOLF client for bandwidth efficiency, although this may add a point at which the rankings could be possibly hacked, so i'm not sure). This wouldn't stop people logging on to WormNET under your name, but no-one would be able to parade your rankings about as their own.

The downside is that everyone would have to download WOLF to take advantage (which would also require the .NET Framework at 22.4MB), but on the other hand all the new features could be integrated into the actual W:A client if/when Deadcode decided to, and everything would already be up and running, and migratable to Team17's server (someone check if "migratable" is a word plx?).

Unfortunately i've not had the time to work on it much yet, and it's a pretty large project. If you think it's a good idea, any help from anyone would be graciously accepted, although the WOLF client itself will be programmed using C# and .NET. It shouldn't be too hard for you though Cyber, given that both were created by the Delphi inventors after they were stolen from Borland by Microsoft ;).

1. Laura said u worked for 30+ minutes on that post i think XD, good use to time
2. migratable is a word but not sure if thats what it mean, the way u said it.
3. An specific tutorial ud recomend or any easy work u want me to do, as i'd love to help but i'm not very wise in coding.

I had an idea for implementing ranks that would work with the existing system and not require any changes. I had planned on making a CutWorm program for w:a that would work similar to the one I made/been making for wwp. The only difference in the w:a version is that I would add a real rank feature to it.

The way that would work is a little complicating. I would need to make a secondary server that worked with wormnet. CutWorm would be used to connect to this server and exchange information between it and wormnet. When you log into wormnet, CutWorm would log into this secondary server and retrieve your ranking information stored on it, along with everyone elses. Players not registered on the rank server would get a -1 rank, which causes w:a to show no rank image for them. This would make it so people could not use programs to fake their rank. (secure)

When you finish a game, CutWorm could be programmed to check your most recent replay, process it, and then automatically record the results to the rank server.

And yeah... that was the basics of my idea. I never did it though because I was too lazy to and I didn't know the make up of the w:a recordings. I asked Deadcode for help with them before but he never responded.

Hmm, that's quite a bit of data to process.

WOLF doesn't seem to be the only similar project out there. I've heard that FBIM will have some of WOLF's functionality, but I'm not sure of the details.

What would be possible, is modularly splitting the game into the front-end and game part. These two parts are only loosely co-integrated. That would mean that users could write their own front-end modules, and adapt them to whatever they need. I don't see this happening, though.

A more likely possibility is a rewrite of the front-end for the better. Making the game use the same DirectDraw surface for both the front-end and the game, and making the game work in windowed mode would be one step. The game doesn't need to use 100% CPU, especially in the front-end. Further-more, the front-end can be completely redesigned, making all screens (including the game) non-modal - that is, you could be playing a game, chatting in #AnythingGoes and spectating two other games at the same time.

The above ideas are inspired from Sallos. Sallos is a C# online gaming lobby, currently featuring a Gunbound clone, tetris, chess, Mastermind and poker. Each game has its own discussion channel, as well as separate ranks. Username registration involves e-mail verification. The user interface features a Windows-like taskbar, which allows you to switch between windows. Another notable feature, is automatic updates - they automatically update any game or data files from the official server. Something like that would be really useful for W:A.

Although Sallos isn't perfect, it has a few inspirational design ideas.
Screenshots: [1] (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8266/19jl1.png) [2] (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1716/24os.png) [3] (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7355/32jm.png)
Download: [Partial] (http://www.opflash-hq.com/sallos/downloads/sallos_partial.zip) [Full] (http://www.opflash-hq.com/sallos/downloads/sallos_full.zip) (needs .NET 1.1 and Managed DirectX Libraries (http://www.opflash-hq.com/sallos/downloads/mdxredist.msi))
Support: [IRC] (irc://irc.runuo.com/sallos) [Forums] (http://www.runuo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46)

Sallos was also my first C# "project". Although I started from the other end by decompiling it and doing modifications, that's how I got acquainted with .NET, C# and MSIL. Initially a cheat client, I later started adding useful modifications and enhancements, such as high resolution support and visual improvements. However, the administrators and player base rejected my alternative client, despite its obvious superiority, mainly due to the fact that it contained cheats (although those were disabled). Read the full story here (http://maplecenter.net/zollaz/history.html).

OK, that's enough bragging about my naughty past. Back to W:A.

Right now all of my network-related modules are on hold, due to an inconsistency in W:A integration in the packet provider module. The module (wkPackets.dll) creates a wrapper layer between Worms and WinSock. W:A uses asynchronous (non-blocking, event-based) sockets, which are quite hard to intercept - filtering or injecting data would require messing with messages. That's why I created an emulation layer, which encapsulates W:A's asynchronous sockets in my own, threaded sockets.
The module allows other modules to register callback functions, which receive packets sent or received by the game, and can modify the data on the fly - all that on several layers (raw, IRC/HTTP, raw game, game lobby, in-game). Its current problem is that on some computers, it causes connection failures - which I find quite tricky to reproduce on my PC. I'm still researching the issue.

Some time ago, I was asked if I could do something about the cheating in league games. I am personally not aware how severe the problem is; I've been told that in leagues about half of the player base uses one form of cheating or another - game pads (debatable), speed modifiers, etc. The security module I talked about earlier creates signed logs of the computer's environment - such as the list of running processes, modules loaded into W:A's memory, and also an elaborate packet log. All the logs, as well as the .WAgame files are digitally signed, and an online signature verifier would be set up (although it uses asymmetric key algorithms). Some may say that this is somewhat of a privacy breach (although popular commercial cheat-protection applications also send the process list to their main servers) - but the point is in that it won't send the logs anywhere by itself. The user can send them himself, on his own accord: if you are blamed for cheating, either accept it or show the logs and prove otherwise.

As for my idea of the First Blood module: several options have been discussed, and we settled with the idea to implement a separate #FirstBlood channel on Lex's server. It would only be accessible to users who have installed and properly configured wkFirstBlood. Aside from enabling your First Blood rank to display on all channels (including Team17 WormNet), the module would detect any games played on Lex's #FirstBlood, and after you exit W:A, will show a dialog and offer you to (selectively) submit any replays of games you have played in the channel. You would have to pick the games you have won yourself, since for schemes where eradicating your opponent isn't the goal it's impossible to detect the winner.

Etho: how about instead of processing replays, hooking to W:A's "win game" code? On ranked channels, W:A sends back a message to the server reporting the win (and possibly loss). One could exploit that instead.

M3ntal: although I have some experience with C#, I have so many projects right now (most of which are W:A related), I probably can't afford to start working on something else as well.

I have been writing this post for far too long.

long post XD
by the way cyber 2 questions:

1. I doubt there is a way to make a non-hackable server or sowtware (some take a while), i don't think such a thing exists or ever will. so why not have more than 1 way to check it, make it a pain to cheat, having to do so much little things so that the game thinks u won?

2. aside from all this, what are you working on?

Ghost']1. I doubt there is a way to make a non-hackable server or sowtware (some take a while), i don't think such a thing exists or ever will. so why not have more than 1 way to check it, make it a pain to cheat, having to do so much little things so that the game thinks u won?
Security in software and Internet applications are two different things. As long as code runs on your machine, you can change it. As long as data is stored in your computer's memory, you can inspect or modify it. There is no fail-safe copy protection mechanism, there is no fail-safe anti-cheating system that would block all hacks that allow you to see your opponents through walls, etcetera. It is theoretically impossible to completely secure an offline application, as long as you can have control over its code or data. So, there are just degrees of vulnerability, and levels of protection.

Serurity in Internet applications is a different thing - mainly because the remote applications (servers, etc.) are like a black box. You have no control over how it runs or processes data - you simply send it some data and it replies back. A security vulnerability in an Internet application usually results in a specially mal-formed request, which causes the application not to process the sent data the way it was intended to. This applies to buffer overflows, PHP/SQL injection, etcetera - and all of these result in points the programmers have missed while creating the application. So, an Internet application can theoretically be completely secured.

Example: I can write a program that asks for a password, and if the password is correct, it will display a message. No matter how many checks I make to ensure that no one is tampering with my application, someone can still inspect my code, detect my checks, remove them, and proceed further. If I try to protect my password by encrypting or hashing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashing) it, the cracker could find the password check and completely disable it, thus making the application think that any password is the correct password. For this particular example, the only way to protect the secret message is to encrypt it using the password, and to store a verification checksum of the decrypted data to check if it was decrypted correctly. Of course, this applies for this particular case - you can't apply this solution to, for example, preventing someone to, for example, make an automated grenade aimer for Worms.

Second example: I can put up a server on the Internet, which has only one open port. When a connection is established, the application requests a password - and if that password is correct, it sends back the secret message, otherwise it simply closes the connection. Assuming that I did proper checks for message length, and there are no TCP/IP-level vulnerabilities in the server's operating system, there is no way you could find out the secret message with traditional hacking. Of course, you could DDoS the server causing it not to work for anyone else, you could ask someone or trick someone into giving you the password (see Social Engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_(security))), or simply go to the particular server and retreive the password by directly accessing the information stored on the server's hard drive (although this can as well be protected by additional local security, see the solution for the first example).

Ghost']2. aside from all this, what are you working on?
Something I'd rather not reveal before it's finished.

1. i read it but not understanding all of it does it get to the conclusion thats it's possible with this type of thing that wormnet is?

2. a clue ;) or date of expected completion?

3. gl with the projects and gl to u guys if u decide to do it, as that'd be impressive XD

Ghost']1. i read it but not understanding all of it does it get to the conclusion thats it's possible with this type of thing that wormnet is?Yes. Ghost']2. a clue ;)No.

Etho - that sounds pretty much like my approach with WOLF, except i'd be using rankings from the leagues rather than creating a completely new ranking table. Both would work well, i suppose.

Cyber - The only problem i have with your design is that it is specifically FB only. I don't honestly know what the in-game ranking graphics would be made to show with WOLF, possibly you could choose the league you wish it to reflect or something, but Worms leagues pop up and go down all the time and i think it'd be a good idea for people to be able to show and see rnakings from any they wish.

Cyber - The only problem i have with your design is that it is specifically FB only.
Can't do everything at once. First FB, then plugins/modules/whatever.
Besides I still have to get that network bug out of the way to proceed with development.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe separate ranked servers were operative at one time, and made to integrate with the old WCL (or WACL?) league rankings through a separate server. However the objective is to restore the compulsory ranking of all players on WormNET, whether it be by a cl2k-like system, a restoration of the Team17 design, one similar to FB, or something completely different.

Ranking players otherwise is meaningless so long as they can choose whether or not to be ranked, thereby distorting the meaningfulness of player rankings. How can someone claim to be the best when others aren't ranked relative to them, and conversely, how can a non-ranked player claim to be the best? This is why a solution, when reached, must involve the official sanction of Team17. I lack the technical expertise to create a suitable answer myself, however I am skilled in seeing to it that whatever solution is devised is adopted and implemented so that the WormNET community can once again enjoy rankings.

P.S. As of the 23th post and 10th day of this thread, still no official response on this topic. I'll be keeping it bumping.

You're not likely to get an official response Cassius, the only Team17 staff that posts in the forum other than once in a blue moon is Sel, their website admin.

i think a few people who have been on WA for a long time, who were there with old ranks and stuff discuss this issue. choose the best way to rank and create it. I cann;t garuntee but i doubt team17 would deny letting ur server with ranks be in the next patch?

Well Boggypants, what are needed are two things:

1. A security garuntee (within reason) for WormNET to ensure that logins are personalized and secure.
2. An administrative mechanism that will require no more oversight on the behalf of Team17 than WormNET does presently.

Team17 quickly scaled down their vision of WormNET as they realized how involving it was (before rankings were dismantled they began a steady process of disengagement), of their energy, and our participation. They want nothing more than to have a server buzzing away quietly in an air conditioned storage room. The very last thing they want is to receive e-mails from people complaining about cheating, ranking irregularities, or to put it another way, they want nothing to do with Worms Armageddon, or its users, anymore or ever again (as they have next-to-nothing to do with us now).

What a viable solution requires are reasonable security measures and a system of automatic and self-regulating oversight. Team17 does not want to have 20 miniature Deadcodes farting about, all equipped with the server source code, trying to be top mod. At the same time, Team17 will refuse to resume that responsibility itself and taking on new employees or duties is out of the question altogether.

Due to the high volume of complaints which FB and cl2k receive on a regular basis, I believe the most expedient approach would be to create a secure server which Team17 can adopt as its own and on which it can run its previous ranking system (which requires no oversight from outside moderators). Once this initial step towards restoring rankings has been achieved, then WormNET can begin to be improved to the tastes of the community, as indeed WA itself has been patched numerous times to suit our needs.

Cass, I don't think it would be a good idea to bring back the old system that requires no moderation. Most likely it would result in people abusing it right away, thus spoiling it for reasonable users yet again. And it would be bad advertisement also, seeing as it only included the default schemes. Not even 25% of the games played in leagues today are default schemes.

Instead, I think it's vital that the community thinks of a solution, then presents it to Deadcode. One solution. And definetley to Deadcode, since T17 won't be giving any part of the code to someone else. I believe that's for certain. The solution could include the new net code, since people seem pretty confident about it not being too hard to come up with.

What do you think is wrong with the way FB works? Yes, we get plenty of complaints. We're currently thinking of ways to reduce the unnecessary ones, but in a way that wouldn't discourage people from complaining when it's just. I definetley think the moderators are doing a fine job and have been selected to represent just about all views generally present on WormNet today. Ideas always welcome, though, possibly in the Q&A/Suggestions forum over at FB.

Personally I think somehow linking the FB rankings with WormNet would be the best, as far as ranks go. Some discussion has already been done in that direction before Deadcode took this little break he's having now and it's the most realistic solution I've stumbled upon so far...

Leave #AnythingGoes for fun games and make a channel for each official FB scheme. Make reporting games a bit more automatic than it is now [see Cyber's and M3nt's ideas], keep the complaints as they are now [web-site discussions in which only involved people and moderators can post] and get a small bunch of active people to take care of maintaining WormNet secure, keep it updated, host monthly tournaments, keep the questions in the #Quiz channel fresh [we've been playing with that idea for some time now] and so on. With such a small comunity it shouldn't create too many problems; if Gunbound and its millions of Asians can be kept in line and properly punished when cheating, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

Cass: I hope you aren't still expecting the schemes to return to their 1998 variations. Times have changed, mostly for the good. I didn't like how the game gradually turned into quasi-professionalism, reducing schemes to the most basic and skill-based components, but that's just the way the new mob likes it. Doesn't mean we can't have a #Retro channel in which we host monthly tournaments of, I don't know, Elite with crates, BnG without any rules, Fort and so on.

i completly agree but i think these ranks should start fresh and not be ranks that are already on sites like fb.

other than that no comment.

Which is one of the points we were discussing back then. I was all for resetting the league and starting fresh once it would become official. But you have to see how someone who's played around a thousand games getting their rating sky-high might not approve of a complete reset.

However it's true that the way FB works, it compensates for the rating difference. If anything, the higher-ranked players would gain a lot less points beating people who've just registered their [secure, that's definetley a priority] account. But at least they'd be given the option of resetting their account, starting from 1200 again. Which everyone has in FB, with some restrictions.

But this is all details, the question is how secure and how soon this can be done. I believe quite a bit of the "secure" part could be handled by moderators. You'd give people the opportunity to report individuals who flash their non-legit Elite rank around and ban them for a month on the first offence [if there's solid proof].

Deadcode's plan was to take care of *all* the client-side bugs and features before fiddling with the WormNet side of matters, though. That includes the new scheme and map formats, along with making the game work in 16/24/32bit colour mode. But nobody seems interested in respecting his views on that anymore. Personally I'd rather wait for all that to become reality [no matter how long it takes] and only then let the rankings return in full glory. But I'm the patient type.

i'm impatient i would rather have an update evryday/week each with a small bug fixed thenn wait 4eva for the the mother-load.

Ghost']i would rather have an update evryday/week each with a small bug fixed thenn wait 4eva for the the mother-load.
That would have a serious impact on:
The amount of code required to provide backwards-compatibilty with other versions The bandwidth used up from users downloading updates The amount of bugs - most changes appearing in the updates are thoroughly tested before becoming publicly available The amount of time wasted by players world-wide to download the update, and to tell to each other to download the update The amount of time spent by DC by building, packing, uploading and announcing such updates, as well as maintaining a comprehensive change-log

I don't mind waiting some time as well - they say all good things come with time :) Think globally: the community has waited a few years, one or two more can't hurt. ;)

I am actually rather surprised Deadcode didn't implement the new scheme format yet. Only a few dozen additional lines of simple code would need to be added to the already existing code. Compared to some of the things he added (replays), that would seem like a breezy few hour (or days, depending on the extent he wanted to change it) project for him that the community would have responded very favorably to.

again you have to remember, as i always forget he does this on his time. If it were me, i would work right now on it, but he has worked a lot of time on it. He will get it done when it's done, cybershadow had a few good points but i think like etho. so i'm not sure, but all we can do is do something ourselfs and/or wait. The choice is not mine, but the people who are doing/might do, the coding.

again: i support the side that this is done by you, but if deadcode were here maybe to post and say hes doing all this himself i'd feel more reasured.

The point I was making is that it seems odd that he hasn't gotten around to something relatively simple and very useful (new schemes), and instead has done something relatively complex and useless (single-stepping replays).

Yes, I am aware the single-stepping thing helped to keep him entertained. It's important that he can still have some fun while working on the game. Afterall, there is not much joy spending a lot of your time fixing a game that you do not enjoy. But his single-stepping program began to really steal his focus and time away from actually working on the game. With no recent major achomplishments with the game it seems as if his interest has dwindled. If he had worked on something more useful, like the new scheme format, his interest in the game might still be there due to the positive response from the community.

Really, even if you are working 18 hours a day, you can still find 5 minutes somewheres in the day to make a post on a forum if it something you really want to do. The reason no one has heard from Dave in so long is because is interest in the game has dwindled away, not because he has been too busy for the game.

Will we hear from him again? Time will tell. We can only hope.

Single stepping replays with trajectory plotting are not only a tool to "entertain" him, but rather a tool to find misbehaviours easier than when playing at normal speed.

As of Dave, you will definately hear from him again.

KRD: There is a reason that ranks were taken away, "security breaches" is only the ostensible motivation (client-side fake elite rank programs were never the issue, malicious account hacking, match result, and game server manipulation are). In actuality, Team17 began gradually stepping back from WA in 2000 and has since rid themselves completely of anything to do with WA by dismantling the rankings altogether. Its not because Phil Carlisle is lazy or that Martyn Brown is uncaring about the WA community, which they may very well also be, its because WA was considered obselete with the impending release of WWP, and they shifted their resources towards their new priorities.

You must remember that for any proposal submitted to Team17, they will instantly counter with "WA no longer produces revenue for our company and we are under no obligation to even keep WormNET running at all, which we continue to do at our own expense." I have disagreed with the structure of FB in the past, however my desire for the restoration of rankings far outstrips my dislike of that league. I don't care what a new ranked WormNET looks like, I only care that a new ranked WormNET be established. As I said earlier, the structure of the leagues can be modified to suit the preferences of the WA community through patching and moderation. It is more important to have a ranking system restored, than to bicker over what it will look like beforehand. If we are stuck in the latter, then indeed ranks will remain a reminiscence of former days gone by. I suggested that the old Team17 League system initially be restored for the following reasons:

1) The structure of the ranking system has already been designed, it requires no further modification in order to implement.
2) It is automatic and requires no moderators or oversight whatsoever.
3) It is amenable to restructuring and patching, which can be done at a later date to reflect the changing interests of the WormNET community.
4) It is a compulsory ranking system that is inclusive of all WormNET players.
5) It is a league structure with which Team17 is already familiar.
6) It can easily be reintegrated with its former online statistics pages, as well as Super Snooper (the official version), yet;
7) It requires NO involvement online, outside of WormNET itself, to fully participate on behalf of the players.

Would FB or cl2k allow for Deadcode to take over as the sole moderator of their leagues? Team17 already does not pay him, and evidently his rapport with them is not so great as to obtain the server source code from them. Asking that the source code of WA or its servers be shared with other programmers is an unlikely proposition, and asking that Team17 dedicate its own employees to this task is wholly unreasonable. Furthermore asking that multiple members of the WormNET community, with whom they have had no prior relationships, be allowed to moderate the only continually successful feature of one of their flag ship products is equally absurd. To put it simply:

Team17 does not care. They want to continue not caring, at zero cost to them. Anything else will be rejected. However I am certain that they will accept the opportunity to generate good will towards their company and products so long as it does not cost them one more penny, one more minute, or one more thought more than they are putting into it right now.


P.S. Cybershadow: WormNET could be configured to automatically download new updates as players log onto WormNET. The installation would be automatic and would keep everyone on the same page. The WA frontend may need some reconfiguration for this feature to run properly, however it has become standard for many other online games.

Team17 has every right to neglect this game and its community, Cass. If they didn't, they'd financially die in a month or two. It's just how things work in the games industry.

I've learned to appreciate the idea behind Worms and nobody can take that away. Even more, they'll probably not mind implementing bits of code the people here come up with into the server if we manage to contact them.

The relevant question, though, is whether the old ranking system would keep the community interested for more than a month. I honestly don't think it would, there's only a bunch of people left who were actually there to see it in action, everyone else simply tagged along in that silly "ME" thread. By no means does that thread signify there's 600 people sweating to be able to start playing in ranked channels. It just means there's a lof of mindless sheep around here.

It's not like FB isn't an accurate representation of skill on WA. Anyone who cares enough to remain good at the game after all this time is surely interested enough to register for the only active league the community has. Don't think the ranked servers returning would drastically change the top-10 lists in each scheme. The only thing that could ever change that would be lots of old people returning to the game. And the only way I see that happening is if the game is patched up properly, made secure and introduced a well-thought-out ranking system that takes into account all schemes popular on WormNet now. Which the old system doesn't, really. See my previous post for more details.

i agree but not so say i'm top 10 at anything, or nothin like that but i don't use fb, i just never got into likiing fb. i only clan on it sometimes.

Also would it be fair that the part of the community that doesn't fb have to start with a new rank?

so 2 questions:

1. If it started like Fb would u not need a starting rank that can go down?

2. Does anyone see any reason not to do this, if so, talk. We should talk about it until the coders/elit'rs make a decision of whether or not to do it. All opinions are valuable.


p.s. one more thing, if u guys do edit worment make the buttons above the games theat say name and the person it hhosted by work to sort. and if possible display sceme name (if 1) and number of players.

More or Less like starcraft would be the kind of thing that would show useful info.

Team17 has every right to neglect this game and its community, Cass. If they didn't, they'd financially die in a month or two.

KRD: That is my point entirely. Implementing an FB style rankings system is one thing, making FB official is another thing. Both of those solutions would require alot of time and effort to design, on top of the more salient security issues which also need to be addressed. The main problem with FB, with respect to WormNET rankings, is administration; there is too much of it (any amount above 0 is too much, *see above post). Why should Team17 trust the moderators of FB, cl2k, or anyone besides Deadcode for that matter? WA is one of their flagship products, there is no way that they will share the source code, no way they will expand other's authority over WormNET, no way they will make themselves succeptible to requests for technical support, and no way that they will give up the power.

The relevant question, though, is whether the old ranking system would keep the community interested for more than a month.

No. Regarding the interest of the WormNET community, are you suggesting that it would diminish if the former system (which co-existed with separate ranked ladders such as WACL) were reintroduced? WA will continue to have a large online following nomatter what happens. Despite numerous WormNET blackout periods (during which various private servers sprang up), the removal of some channels, discontinuation of rankings, and total administrative neglect, it has sustained a stable community size, which will not diminish significantly nomatter what happens. Do not forget that WormNET lost alot of traffic as many players simply stopped playing due to the lack of ranks in the first place. Nevertheless, seven years after the launch of WormNET it still maintains a steady level of user traffic. The demand for WormNET is inelastic and the users of WA are resilient, not "mindless sheep".

The relevant issue is that if nothing happens now, nothing will happen for a long time to come. Especially since Deadcode is a long, long, way away from finalizing a 4.0 WA patch, given his other priorities and disinterest with WA. "Strike while the iron is hot" may be a clichè but it is equally good advice. I don't care if FB runs WormNET, nor do I care if FB dies. If we argue over WormNET's ranking structure before its implemented, rather than after, then it will never be implemented (*see above post). The interest in Worms and ranked play will not wane with the passage of time, yet we are in jeopardy because our resolve might.

man, give it another week atleast let the thrad continue, everyone get there pretty opinion in but i agree with cass.

remember:
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero = Seize the day, trust as little as possible in tomorrow.

Ok so i talked to somepeople like sfnord online and asked there opinions and such and his was pretty valuable.

his conclusions were:
1. it will be a pain in the ass without the code
2. Unless u make the server up again with complete encryption and stuff he says it's a waist.

i talked to him for about an hour and indentity theft is a problem.

if there is no online secure way i suggest the buddys system

like at costco, only another members can veryify ur U. such as i could go to fraggle or rednack of gat and say hi it's me i signed up but i need authorization. then they can go and say it was me and such and then i'd be in.

however thats where u need admins or atleast someone who checks there email as theft would be a problem. no non-admin sever would be good.

cmon guys think about it don't let the thread die like every other1 on the subject. think about it. if u come up with good ideas and a good plan then drop it, ur bound to do the same again. Don't let history repeat itself, work on this!

Byte's doing some progress.

http://team15.org/

can you connect to that i tried, i pressed login typed in the correct info and it never loaded.

I never said it was finished. Did I say it's working? I didn't say that. So no point in complaining about trying to connect to something that isn't even finished. :/

I'm trying to convince Byte to let CyberShad0w take a look at his server. As of right now it has some technical fault in it and Byte has lost his motivation to repair it. However if he allows CyberShad0w to finish it for him, then it can be taylored to exactly what is needed to present to Team17 in a proposal for the restoration of rankings to WormNET.

good luck cass may the prod be with u ;)

Excuse me, but does anyone remember exactly how the original point system worked? We need to know.

something along the lines that at the start of each game both players lost 8 points, at the end of the game, the loser got back 5 points and the winner um... more... depending on the difference between the ranks of the two players. I dont remember all the point values for the different ranks. i think 2 star gold was 180....

i'll go get it, i knew a guide that had it and i backed it up, it has some info baout this in it.

this has most of the info u want, a pretty fabulos guide i ran across:
http://dlh.net/chtdb/chtview.php?lang=ger&typ=Engl.%20FAQ&sys=pc&cap=&search=&match=&layout=&disp=e5399&page=6

Nice find, Ghost! :)

thanx :p:)

Those that slept through it, Byte's server is online for testing purposes. Get my server list at http://maplecenter.net/wormnet/ - or get Byte's at his http://team15.org/ site, but mine's better. ;)

Built-in ranks aren't working yet, but Byte will work on them when he finds the time. First Blood integration is planned as well.

Ghost']http://dlh.net/chtdb/chtview.php?lang=ger&typ=Engl.%20FAQ&sys=pc&cap=&search=&match=&layout=&disp=e5399&page=6
Very nice find indeed!
It also covers the controls for various console versions that a few people have previously asked about and noone had a clue.

I hope you have that site back-upped, Ghost? :)

Very nice find indeed!
It also covers the controls for various console versions that a few people have previously asked about and noone had a clue.

I hope you have that site back-upped, Ghost? :)

Please Tell Me That Wasn't A Question :P. If I Could Backup This Forum I Would LOL

Ghost']If I Could Backup This Forum I Would LOL

No problem with Wget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wget)

i wouldn't mind to actually backit up but i had a brain explosion trying to understand it all :P

Ghost']i wouldn't mind to actually backit up but i had a brain explosion trying to understand it all :P
Ehrm, Wget is a program that downloads entire webpages with all the images and stuff and adapts the internal links to let you browse the page offline.

But I actually only meant that W:A guide (plain text).

i kno, but do u kno an easy way to have a copy of this worms arma, wwp and w2 and archieve and supports sections in here?

Ghost']i kno, but do u kno an easy way to have a copy of this worms arma, wwp and w2 and archieve and supports sections in here?

There is no easier way as the one using Wget:

If you wish Wget to keep a mirror of a page (or ftp subdirectories), use --mirror.
wget --mirror http://www.somesite.com/ -o directorytosaveto

In addition to the above, you want the links to be converted for local viewing. But, after having read the manual, you know that link conversion doesn't play well with timestamping, so you also want Wget to back up the original html files before the conversion. Wget invocation would look like this:
wget --mirror --convert-links --backup-converted http://www.somesite.com/ -o directorytosaveto

(http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/manual/html_node/Examples.html)

so in english what are the actual steps to do?

1. Read about software.
2. Get software.
3. Use software.

yes but hard to understand

There is no easier way as the one using Wget

omg. liar.

there is another (easier) way: ask Sel ;)

asked sel and backup run's website as what on it now is very valuable.

You know, there are shareware/commercial wget-like software tools for dummies, like Teleport Pro (http://www.tenmax.com/teleport/pro/home.htm).
Also, there are some Wget front-ends (http://www.jensroesner.de/wgetgui/#screen) for Windows.

i was wondering if anyone knew if there was any progress as the news of t15 hasn't changed and well uh ya.

well, anyone? i was wondering because there no-one answered my last post.

There seems to be no progress on the Team15 server.
Also, Byte is not responding to my communication attempts, despite his ICQ showing signs of being used (status changes, periodic signing in/out, etc.)

awww well thanx for trying, try every little while when ur online if u can :).

That's too bad. Well I haven't given up on it.

Etho: how about instead of processing replays, hooking to W:A's "win game" code? On ranked channels, W:A sends back a message to the server reporting the win (and possibly loss). One could exploit that instead.

Can you confirm this still works? I viewed the data sent after winning an elite game in wwp's #Elite channel and didn't see anything like that.

I can confirm it still works, since Bastos coded a ranked WN1 server some time ago using precisely that game-reported results.

Anyone got his contact info?
I am desperately lacking information about channel settings/secure login/ranking systems.

Sent via PM.
He's not often available tho.