I think Team17 should finally make Worms Armageddon freeware. Seriously.

There's no way they're still making any decent profit from WA sales. Going online and downloading a disc image of the game is easy, and since it has no copy protection, pirate copies work just as well as real ones - even for playing on WormNet.

Going freeware would undoubtedly attract new players and keep WA's online community going for longer. I think Team17 should simply provide the disc image online for free.

Anybody else agree?

If it was relaunched on Steam with 4.0, there'd be profits...

Even if there are enough assholes just downloading it there are still some buying it, giving Team17 at least a lil' bit of $$ they deserve for one of the best 10 computer games of all times.

I would support selling it on Steam, people would still buy it. I'm sure they have reasons for not doing it though otherwise I'd assume they'd have done it already. I feel like the major issue at the moment is that sometimes it's actually hard to buy a CD copy for many people.

If it came out on Steam, I'd buy it again.

The problem is licensing and copyright agreements related to the various materials present in the game. Have to go through a great amount of effort tracking people down, getting permission to use there work in a new commercial release/package of the game (It would come with the 3rd party beta updates already applied), re-licensing the various engine components the game makes use of etc.

I'm pretty sure going freeware wouldn't really attract more people, anyone who wants to get it for free already can (piracy). The only issue it might fix is there is nowhere to get the game legitimely, stores won't carry it anymore and the T17 Store is gone, at most you might find it used somewhere.

The problem is licensing and copyright agreements related to the various materials present in the game. Have to go through a great amount of effort tracking people down, getting permission to use there work in a new commercial release/package of the game (It would come with the 3rd party beta updates already applied), re-licensing the various engine components the game makes use of etc.

What companies do you know of that do not own the sole rights to the game they are advertising and selling? No permission would be needed from the developers to use "there work", because they were paid to create something for Team17; the work was not bought or rented.

I believe LandGen was a product Team17 licensed for use in Worms 2, W:A and WWP (The contract likely has expired since then.) though recent beta updates have rendered LandGen no longer necessary... There's probably other parts of the game that are of similar nature.

What companies do you know of that do not own the sole rights to the game they are advertising and selling?

Probably most? Eg: lots of games are sold and advertised on steam, but Valve doesn't own them all.

Contract law is complicated.

Here is an old post on the topic:
I've been thinking about how best to answer this question considering that it will be over analysed and quoted back at me for as long as I live :)

Having said that, the "it's complicated" answer is a good one. We love WA and we are really proud of how the game is regarded not only by Worms fans but also by gamers in general and the work that both Deadcode and Cybershadow have done has been amazing.

Now we have a desire here to make our back catalog of games available to a wider audience and in an ideal world that would mean doing something with WA too. But Team17 is out to make money and WA does not make us money any more and if we decided to re release on say Steam then I imagine comments like "money grabbing *******s" etc would flow forevermore.

Why would the current WA players go out an buy the game again when it currently functions very well now?

Now, this is not to say that we've given up any hope of sorting something out and I have regular chats with Cybershadow talking about different ideas, I just don't expect that we will see anything happen very quickly.

Sorry I can't say any more on it really.

Probably most?

Apparently I should have made it clear that I was referring to game developers, as opposed to merchants/distributors.

Even if there are enough assholes just downloading it there are still some buying it, giving Team17 at least a lil' bit of $$ they deserve for one of the best 10 computer games of all times.

I disagree with the statement that Team17 is making money off current WA sales. As far as I know, anyone who buys WA now is doing so through eBay or another 3rd-party seller, meaning Team17 sees none of those profits.

I don't think re-releasing on Steam for a small fee would be a "money grabbing" move at all. I already own WA, but I would happy to pay again for the convenience of having it in my Steam library.

Apparently I should have made it clear that I was referring to game developers, as opposed to merchants/distributors.

If memory serves, publishers tend to own most of the rights, unless studios self publish.

and if we decided to re release on say Steam then I imagine comments like "money grabbing *******s" etc would flow forevermore.

IMO, DC & CS have dug themselves into a hole with their plans for 4.0 - they can't possibly do it themselves in under 5 years (given their track record), in which time WA will finally become too primitive to pay for. Either they get paid to step up development, or Team17 does the update. Either way, the money would need to be recouped somehow...

If memory serves, publishers tend to own most of the rights, unless studios self publish.

What do you mean by "publishers"? Steam (as per your example) is a distributor and nothing else. Game developers such as Team17 tend to own all rights to their games, even if they are a PLC or otherwise. The only exception to this is where they acquire outside help/content from someone unrelated to the company. An example of this might be when developers build around existing game engines or structures.

What do you mean by "publishers"? Steam (as per your example) is a distributor and nothing else. Game developers such as Team17 tend to own all rights to their games, even if they are a PLC or otherwise. The only exception to this is where they acquire outside help/content from someone unrelated to the company. An example of this might be when developers build around existing game engines or structures.

W3D: Developed by T17, published by Sega.
W4: Develped by T17, published by Codemasters.

Etc. Publishers usually own most of the rights.

I'm pretty sure going freeware wouldn't really attract more people, anyone who wants to get it for free already can (piracy). The only issue it might fix is there is nowhere to get the game legitimely, stores won't carry it anymore and the T17 Store is gone, at most you might find it used somewhere.

Wow, I didn't even notice the T17 Store no longer exists. All the more reason for people to feel OK about pirating the game.

I also agree with those who say Worms Armageddon should be re-released on Steam. That would be really nice. I'd definitely buy it again.

Hear me out, Team17 - please re-release Worms Armageddon either as freeware or on Steam!

I don't even like Steam and I still think tasking David and Vladimir with bringing WA there would be the greatest thing Team17 could possibly do for the game and its community. I'd kind of have to insist on it being them, though, simply because I know for a fact that they not only know the code better than anyone but also because they're very much on top of what (and how) the players would like to see being implemented.

As far as I'm concerned, that'd be way better than making it free.

So what other DEFINITE issues are there besides paying them to get 4.0 out on Steam A.S.A.P.?

How long do the agreements last for anyway? If W:A is going to be stuck in legal limbo forever, that's depressing and a real shame.

It feels like it's unfairly being held back. FREE THE WORMS ARMAGEDDON!

Well, I know for sure it can't stay this way.

People won't wait for weeks for their copies. Either release it on Steam or release it free. IMO Steam is better option, because it's STILL a paid game (so at the end of the day, Team17 is still a money grabbing *******s), no matter how you distribute it - but Steam is more reliable and faster. And if you release it free, I'd like to see who'll complain.

Yes, it was said before, but that's my view also.

Awesome avatar, OP. ;)

Awesome avatar, OP. ;)

Thanks. Gotta love the Dreamcast. Like many good things in life, it died too soon.

Anyway, I'm thinking of making a new thread to petition Team17 for a Steam release - think I should do that?

Anyway, I'm thinking of making a new thread to petition Team17 for a Steam release - think I should do that?

I don't think, there have been like 2 or 3 threads about this already...

I just got a <<<great>>> idea.

Kickstarter campaign for WA 4.0, to fund the game's transition to Steam. All (or most) money goes to CS and DC.

http://www.kickstarter.com/

Steam sucks IMHO :)

Steam owns IMHO :)

Steam sucks IMHO :), but I don't care if it's related to WA 4.0:D

Steam is alright. It's simply the modern way of DRM.

Thank goodness that we have passed the days of rootkit spyware DRM crap of the past, like Starforce or Securom. Those were way more annoying and game-breaking.
In fact, I have never had any problem with Steam with any of the 252 games that I have on my account.

Besides, the additional features that a Steam release would bring (Steamworks, Steam Cloud, leaderboards, achievements,...) can only be beneficial for W:A.

Steam would be a gift from heaven, the ultimate gaming platform to me if it weren't for the bugs. I can't even get it to start the offline mode.

i dont see why t17 just doesnt re-release the game on nds, psp, or dlc on the bigger consoles. plenty of games have been re-released in this matter with great success. usually with added content. i have never heard anyone call squarenixsoftendo money grubbing anything for chrono trigger. quite the opposite in fact. if steam makes it more accessible and easier to install whats the problem?

only issues i can think of:

controller schemes (i use an xbox cont anyway so i dont care)

player generated content

wormnet compatibility

Because it doesn't work on those at all and would need complete crossplatform reprogramming? :rolleyes:

i dont see why t17 just doesnt re-release the game on nds, psp, or dlc on the bigger consoles. plenty of games have been re-released in this matter with great success. usually with added content. i have never heard anyone call squarenixsoftendo money grubbing anything for chrono trigger. quite the opposite in fact. if steam makes it more accessible and easier to install whats the problem?

only issues i can think of:

controller schemes (i use an xbox cont anyway so i dont care)

player generated content

wormnet compatibility

because it's not 4.0, don't you see

@pac-man your stating the obvious. they would need to port it in order for it to run on whatever platform. it would be an investment that they would (hopefully) recoup in sales.

@steps i would definitely wait for 4.0 before re-releasing it.


makes more sense for t17 to re-release W:A than another leasure suit larry: worst game of all time, or another worms attempt at recapturing the magic. just my opinion.

its "lEIsure suit larry" and he isn't from team17 :-/ oh yeah and he is awesome because of al lowe.
team17 already "rereleased" worms with this dumb worms reloaded stuff. why should they do it again?
srsly which business would act like that

well mr pac-man do you want to be the one to correct the wiki entry for the last leisure suit larry game? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry:_Box_Office_Bust cause under the picture of the box art it says "developer: team17". and al lowe doesnt have anything to do with larry anymore (sad to say) which is probably why it was voted one of the worst games in the 2000+ and got horrible reviews http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_notable_for_negative_reception #Leisure_Suit_Larry:_Box_Office_Bust_.28PC.2C_PS3. 2C_X360.29

worms reloaded is a whole new game, so is worms 2: armageddon. those where "attempts to recapture the magic" as i put it earlier. im talking about releasing worms: armageddon on newer platforms via downloadable content, hand helds, ect.

i can think of a dozen or more companies that have released older games on newer systems; squarenix, nintendo, sega... i even used the example of chrono trigger being released on nds. do you even read before you respond??

::EDIT:: think of all the super nintendo games that got re-released on gameboy advance.

As I said before I don't mean the idiotic non-Al-Lowe titles (which I'd never call "Leisure Suit Larry games", what a shame for the real "LARRY").
I'm surprised though Team17 produced that sh*t. Now I know why Worms Reloaded became such a mess, looks like T17 isn't that good at remaking old games (so please don't even try to make a whole new Worms and just stick to update the ones of the old cold base).
If T17 needs some hints in remaking classics, they should ask HAL Laboratories which successfully never made bigger changes to the jump'n'run Kirby games and are still successful with that.
I blamed T17, should the video game god forgive me :'-/

you never said anything about non al lowe larry games

i am NOT saying t17 should remake worms: armageddon, i aam saying they should just release it on newer mediums with the updates. please re-read before you post

I'm surprised though Team17 produced that sh*t. Now I know why Worms Reloaded became such a mess, looks like T17 isn't that good at remaking old games (so please don't even try to make a whole new Worms and just stick to update the ones of the old cold base).

Looks like you haven't tried Lemmings, then. The games by Team17 were by far the best in the series.

Looks like you haven't tried Lemmings, then. The games by Team17 were by far the best in the series.

I love T17 Lemmings (the one for PS2 I mean) :D

Well, a lot of developers have the viewpoint: "as long as you buy our new games, we do not mind if you play the older games for free".

Well, a lot of developers have the viewpoint: "as long as you buy our new games, we do not mind if you play the older games for free".

disagreed. give an example.

Team17, for one. Sorta. You can download all their old Amiga games for free, anyway.

Probably because the Amiga is a dead platform

Technically speaking, EA lets you play old C&C games for free.

i dont think WA should be free, but it will be great if v4 will be on Steam.

I'm not gonna pay for minimum content added and the release on steam. This game has a too low player base to team17 actually care. Worms reloaded was already a disaster so I don't care what team17 does anymore. I just wanna grab my game out of a shelf, not pay it online.

One single negative comment might actually be enough for Team17 not to do it.

Congrats 1batata, you ruined everything :mad:

People should pay for it and then have a nice physical disk of it. W:A is oldschool, Team17 too, and it should stay that way. HAPPY END

F*CK it! W:A goes flash!! t17 recoups costs from advertising and popups

- But Flash is dead
- I know
- O_O

ok that was bad

- But Flash is dead
Quick - update the Wikipedia page! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dead_comic_book_characters)



Seriously though, Flash is not even remotely dead. People just wish it was.

On my PC it is. Forever and always. MUAHAA

It should be titled "Worms Armageddon Classic" so no one confuses it with Worms 2: Armageddon.

Which makes it sound even older than Worms Armageddon.

I just wanna grab my game out of a shelf, not pay it online.
Grabbing games from shelves is dead. Live with it.

I have a 100Mbit broadband connection and can download games with several gigabytes in minutes and immediately play the most up-to-date version.
Why should I waste fuel by driving to the next retail shop and actually pay more for the same game, then come home and go through a tedious installation process from an optical disc, possibly adding patches afterwards?
(And yes, optical drives are dead too.)

Besides, it's much better if a developer self-publishes their games on Steam, without the need of costly publishers and other greedy middlemen.
Also, no costs for physical discs and manuals, as well as no added price margins from retailers.
A win-win situation in my eyes. (Well, not for retailers.)

(And yes, optical drives are dead too.)
And here I was thinking Pac-Man was stupid for saying Flash is dead...

And here I was thinking Pac-Man was stupid for saying Flash is dead...
Serious though.
I think I use the DVD drive in PC about 3 times a year, mostly when I get something on CD from older people like my mother-in-law.
My car has a USB connection, so the last use of burning MP3s to a CD have vanished too.

Also, I've watched 10x more movies and series from the USB drive connected to my BluRay player, as well via CFIS connected streaming from PC to the BluRay player.

The only market that I can see lasting several more years are game consoles.
But even there the DLC market has increased drastically.

i rarely use discs these days either. i have a problem with finding out my drives are dead when i do need em to burn something. i still buy music cds from artists i really like, but i usually end up giving them away after i rip em. i don't even use discs in my modded xbox because i can network share all my media with it.

Bonz whats up with the laser sprite? are you gonna make a PX weapon or can someone else have permission to use it?

And here I was thinking Pac-Man was stupid for saying Flash is dead...

Thanks btw, Adobe stopped developing Flash themselves ;)

Btw, game downloads are uncool

With Team17 going to GOG.com, we can safely assume that W:A will not go freeware :)

Bonz...

Can I assume that you just don't know what the word 'dead' means? That you're mixing it up with 'personally don't use myself'? That you don't think everybody else has the exact same experiences as you, and that physical videogame, music and movie retailers have all gone out of business?

Because... y'know, they haven't.

i rarely use discs these days either. i have a problem with finding out my drives are dead when i do need em to burn something. i still buy music cds from artists i really like, but i usually end up giving them away after i rip em. i don't even use discs in my modded xbox because i can network share all my media with it.
Psst. Psssst. Probably not a good idea to admit to piracy here.

Thanks btw, Adobe stopped developing Flash themselves ;)
For mobiles! They stopped developing Flash plugins for mobile browsers. That's all.
Unless you believe that you expect all Flash development to fold soon after as a result, but that's a foregone conclusion, and even then it'd still be alive and kicking for far longer than that.

Plasma, OK, Optical drives are in their terminal stage so long as you're still using them. I've stopped using them 2 years ago more or less since I use USB sticks and media players for mobile audio (including car), started using hard disks, USB sticks, and media players (built in the TV) for watching video and using hard disks for backup/other file archiving. Software has become readily available through downloading. Am I forgetting another purpose for using optical drives?

BTW, yes indeed, the same goes for Flash. And I don't say this lightly, I'm the webdeveloper for a web video firm and though we still use Flash because there's no other way to reach older browser versions, it is very apparently on it's way out. Mobile devices are the future, and Flash is not taking part in it!

Bonz...

Can I assume that you just don't know what the word 'dead' means? That you're mixing it up with 'personally don't use myself'? That you don't think everybody else has the exact same experiences as you, and that physical videogame, music and movie retailers have all gone out of business?

Because... y'know, they haven't.

...yet. HMV is losing money hand over fist, Blockbuster went bankrupt in america, Game is closing down stores. And so on. I think Bonz is right here.

Bonz whats up with the laser sprite? are you gonna make a PX weapon or can someone else have permission to use it?
_Kilburn has said to have started working on the laser for PX, with a recreation of the sprite from scratch.
That was several months ago though, IIRC.

He already made a very good Sheep-on-a-rope for PX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9bKAPjXIcA

For mobiles! They stopped developing Flash plugins for mobile browsers. That's all.
Unless you believe that you expect all Flash development to fold soon after as a result, but that's a foregone conclusion, and even then it'd still be alive and kicking for far longer than that.


Then lets simply hope it's dead in a few years.

I know I can use paysafecard now so that's almost the best of both worlds.