Which style do u prefer and which style is useful for what game(wxw, roper, rr etc)?

just interessted in it, sorry for noob question :P

I recommend fr, anyway its personal stuff. People can win without fast tapping.

Fr is quite hard to learn but after some time of training it's helpful and fun:

Fr'ing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuT31WtV_Cw)

I reccomend tapping spacebar, anything else isn't human behavior.

Macros and keyoard hacks work best for me

Macros and keyoard hacks work best for me

i guess fr and twitch is often an alibi for that stuff.

lookias, you're absolutely right. Countless cheaters deny using such things under the guise of fr and so on..

This thread could do with being closed, it might give newer players the impression that there's nothing wrong with remapping or macros etc.




EDIT: Very amusing Green x)

Macros and keyoard hacks work best for meThis thread could do with being closed, it might give newer players the impression that there's nothing wrong with remapping or macros etc.
Just shout at him for being an evil cheater and hope that new players scroll down that far :)

He was being funny, though :rolleyes:

skime can burn in hell, for reference.


Also, I remember you once said that people who use artifical advantages should inform real ropers before playing them, and let them decide for themselves what to do.

Such courtesy is VERY rare, I must point out. It's not your problem, you're not much on the roping scene or anything, but try not to poke fun at the people who don't want to tolerate cheating ;o People look up to you, after all.

He was being funny, though :rolleyes:I know.try not to poke fun at the people who don't want to tolerate cheating ;o Didn't mean to.

I can't even make a joke without sounding like I'm poking fun at someone :( Back to SeriousShadow I guess.

I also think fingerroll and other cheating **** sucks. If those guys would at least play fair with normal guys who don't cheat. Every roper with only a little piece of honour stops cheating and playes fair. Otherwise he won't get respect.;)

No! Not the puppy eyes! D:

Image not draw by me, nor meant to resemble my actual appearance =D

[QUOTE=-B-;722269]I also think fingerroll and other cheating **** sucks.[/
QUOTE]

bravo you are the first guy who missunderstands fingerrolling to be cheating, because of this thread xD

i play 2 finger on 1 space and im happy with that :D. How is that kind of tapping called?
Someone told me its not FR, because FR is with 2 spaces.

i play 2 finger on 1 space and im happy with that :D. How is that kind of tapping called?
Someone told me its not FR, because FR is with 2 spaces.

depends on how you tap with your fingers. if you use them alternatively you do fr.

Back to SeriousShadow I guess.
I AM OFFENDED! :mad:

depends on how you tap with your fingers. if you use them alternatively you do fr.

ah ok
i tap 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1

finger 1 = 1
finger 2 = 2

:D

i play 2 finger on 1 space and im happy with that :D. How is that kind of tapping called?
Someone told me its not FR, because FR is with 2 spaces.

I laugh'd. :(

People put way too much emphasis on the space bar. Roping well depends far more about the arrow keys than anything else.

FingerRoll is a waste of time for 99% of people who try it. I can't remember the last time I saw it used to someone's advantage.

Just tap the key with a single finger :)

Cue :<

i play 2 finger on 1 space and im happy with that :D. How is that kind of tapping called?
Someone told me its not FR, because FR is with 2 spaces.

Well, they should probably have said that FR is only useful with two spaces or more. FR'ing on one spacebar won't help you very much, because the rope will only shoot as fast as it will shoot naturally, and the key needs a fraction of a second to un-click after it's depressed. Two spaces provide an advantage because the user has two triggers, which breaches this limit of legitimate roping. FR will let you shoot faster on one spacebar, but only if you're right up against the ceiling/wall, so that the rope reaches it's target fast enough to detect the extra key presses. To sum up, you can shoot as many ropes on one spacebar with one finger as you can with 2 or 3, even if you're pressing the key more times with the extra fingers.

Don't be silly now. Finger rolling with more than one key acting as spacebar is commonly agreed upon by the wise old men of the community to be the newbie way out. Real finger rolling, as it was invented, is done with one spacebar, and takes quite a bit of practice to get right. But even then, it can be argued that it does very little to improve a roping person's speed, efficiency or style. In fact I'd say the opposite is true.

Anyway, using two keys instead of [as The Concrete Donkey intended] one does not, in any way, change the way the game accepts input. All it does is give inexperienced ropers a quick and easy sense of false accomplishment. A single finger on a single spacebar on a single decent keyboard can result in tapping just as fast. And a lot more often than not the resulting roping will be far more precise, reliable and stylish.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :p

Dang. I had no idea how much thought went into pressing a button.

Well, they should probably have said that FR is only useful with two spaces or more. FR'ing on one spacebar won't help you very much, because the rope will only shoot as fast as it will shoot naturally, and the key needs a fraction of a second to un-click after it's depressed.

no thats false, two spaces have a big disatvantage, if one is pressed you cant tap on the other, because the game gets a little confused. so you must allways release the first to get a second hit with the other key.

well thats allmnost the same as using one space key.

there is one thing bad when you use 1 key. the key needs some time to go up, bevor you can hit it again. but there is a solution for this problem:

http://lookias.lo.funpic.de/page/fr%20tutorial/fr%20tutorial.htm

i call it rubber tuning.

i can press my space (only 1 key) 17 times in a second with this trick.

greetz lookias

Anyway, using two keys instead of [as The Concrete Donkey intended] one does not, in any way, change the way the game accepts input. All it does is give inexperienced ropers a quick and easy sense of false accomplishment. A single finger on a single spacebar on a single decent keyboard can result in tapping just as fast. And a lot more often than not the resulting roping will be far more precise, reliable and stylish.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :p

Your story is full of plot holes ._. if it was the same as one, then what accomplishment would there be for such people? The fact is even horrible, terrible ropers can shoot far faster than you or me if they have more keys to fire with. It's very easy to spot when someone is using two spaces.

If you're using one, even if you're a comet, your roping will look natural.

Besides, I don't base my opinions on hearsay; I get about 11-12 hits per second fingerrolling my spacebar, but it doesn't translate into 5/6 rope shots per second in the game. If you get half of those hits on two or more spaces, you'll be shooting faster than I can.




no thats false, two spaces have a big disatvantage, if one is pressed you cant tap on the other, because the game gets a little confused. so you must allways release the first to get a second hit with the other key.

well thats allmnost the same as using one space key.

there is one thing bad when you use 1 key. the key needs some time to go up, bevor you can hit it again. but there is a solution for this problem:

http://lookias.lo.funpic.de/page/fr%20tutorial/fr%20tutorial.htm

i call it rubber tuning.

i can press my space (only 1 key) 17 times in a second with this trick.

greetz lookias

Again, I cite the actual facts of the matter - Someone playing for the first time with more than one spacebar can shoot faster than someone who's played 13 years with one.

Modifying your spacebar puts you right in the same category as double-spacers, macro whores and program users. Run the race with the same sneakers as everyone else. Giving yourself any sort of advantage just makes you part of the problem.

Well, they should probably have said that FR is only useful with two spaces or more.

im talking about this statement which is wrong. and why do you think is a tuned space key cheating? in every sport ppl use such stuff. like swimmers with shark-skin imitations.

greetz lookias

Modifying your spacebar puts you right in the same category as double-spacers, macro whores and program users. Run the race with the same sneakers as everyone else. Giving yourself any sort of advantage just makes you part of the problem.

That's not very logical if you think about it, modifying your keyboard sensitivity is completely fair game. There is no standard keyboard, so there are no completely 'same' sneakers of which to speak in terms of kb quality; everyone has already started off on a different foot. Unless you're suggesting that somehow, people who started off with higher quality keyboards have already given themselves too much of an advantage.

Is there some difference between buying, or having built for you, an extremely sensitive keyboard, and using paper to increase your space sensitivity? If not, I rest my case. If so, then I would have to assume the issue is that a modified keyboard just doesn't seem like a 'pure' or 'unadulterated' kb, because it includes something that the manufacturer didn't already put in.

But this is a pretty trivial issue, since one could easily have already included the paper ball in the design of the keyboard, and there would be countless ways to get acknowledgment of a paper ball kb as a genuinely unmodified keyboard from a certified keyboard manufacturer. Since even small companies and individuals can be genuine keyboard manufacturers, it's pretty clear how little effort it would take for a so-called modified kb design to instantly become an unmodified one. Hell, I'm quite sure I could get Dell to personally include a paper ball under my spacebar if I was ordering some expensive desktop. Surely you see how arbitrary the distinction between a modified and unmodified kb is for such a small alteration. In any case, the act of modification itself isn't what seems wrong to us, it's only when that modification takes the kb outside of our common sense notions of acceptable keyboard layout that it crosses the line.

That's not very logical if you think about it, modifying your keyboard sensitivity is completely fair game. There is no standard keyboard, so there are no completely 'same' sneakers of which to speak in terms of kb quality; everyone has already started off on a different foot. Unless you're suggesting that somehow, people who started off with higher quality keyboards have already given themselves too much of an advantage.

Is there some difference between buying, or having built for you, an extremely sensitive keyboard, and using paper to increase your space sensitivity? If not, I rest my case. If so, then I would have to assume the issue is that a modified keyboard just doesn't seem like a 'pure' or 'unadulterated' kb, because it includes something that the manufacturer didn't already put in.

But this is a pretty trivial issue, since one could easily have already included the paper ball in the design of the keyboard, and there would be countless ways to get acknowledgment of a paper ball kb as a genuinely unmodified keyboard from a certified keyboard manufacturer. Since even small companies and individuals can be genuine keyboard manufacturers, it's pretty clear how little effort it would take for a so-called modified kb design to instantly become an unmodified one. Hell, I'm quite sure I could get Dell to personally include a paper ball under my spacebar if I was ordering some expensive desktop. Surely you see how arbitrary the distinction between a modified and unmodified kb is for such a small alteration. In any case, the act of modification itself isn't what seems wrong to us, it's only when that modification takes the kb outside of our common sense notions of acceptable keyboard layout that it crosses the line.


I find that people will always miss the point somehow, if they're the ones behind the modified gear. You can try to blur the lines between modified and unmodified all you like - The fact is that you did something to gain an edge. Whether you pad your spacebar or you call Dell or you ask whoever else to do it for you, doesn't take you out of the equation. You've made it happen and you're playing with it. Even with that blatent fact on the table, I'll add that if someone gave me, for free, a keyboard with paper under the spacebar, I would take it out. Then the other lingering grey area, the "Buying a super gaming keyboard" issue; I just don't think that anyone desperate enough to gain the upper hand to fork out triple digits for such a keyboard would have any problem with just cheating like half of Wormnet.

It's not as if the most expensive high quality keyboards are built for maximum spacebar sensitivity, in any case. You'd do better in an FPS with one, but worms? Oldschools tend to use solid, durable OLD keyboards from what I've seen. I've heard good things about Cherry brand, which are like $15. If you pay more, you're paying for backlighting, media controls, little display screens and so on.

It's those durable old Cherry and IBM keyboards that cost the most. And are at the same time considerably more responsive and consistent thanks to the mechanical switches under their keys. At least with them, though, you're actually getting your money's worth, unlike with the blinking monstrosities with so called macro keys that Logitech and Razer are trying to push these days.

Also, I'm one of the people considering buying a keyboard costing triple digits. According to you, that pretty much makes me a man of low moral fibre, right?

@KRD - Get a Filco

My keyboard is one of the only single items I've bought for my PC that cost triple digits. Meta, you would give me a very odd look if you saw how simple this thing looks.

I am getting a Filco. Just haven't fully decided on which colour switch I should go with. :)

Quite surprised anyone here even knows of 'em, though.

In a nutshell, don't get blacks. They feel flimsy and horrible. Browns are really nice to the touch (I use them) and really quiet once you stop bottoming the keys out. Blues have a lovely higher pitched IBM click and are a little tougher to actuate. Blues were too loud for me and also didn't feel great for worms in particular, but are really addicting to type with.

I.e. Get browns!

I find that people will always miss the point somehow, if they're the ones behind the modified gear. You can try to blur the lines between modified and unmodified all you like - The fact is that you did something to gain an edge. Whether you pad your spacebar or you call Dell or you ask whoever else to do it for you, doesn't take you out of the equation. You've made it happen and you're playing with it. Even with that blatent fact on the table, I'll add that if someone gave me, for free, a keyboard with paper under the spacebar, I would take it out. Then the other lingering grey area, the "Buying a super gaming keyboard" issue; I just don't think that anyone desperate enough to gain the upper hand to fork out triple digits for such a keyboard would have any problem with just cheating like half of Wormnet.

It's not as if the most expensive high quality keyboards are built for maximum spacebar sensitivity, in any case. You'd do better in an FPS with one, but worms? Oldschools tend to use solid, durable OLD keyboards from what I've seen. I've heard good things about Cherry brand, which are like $15. If you pay more, you're paying for backlighting, media controls, little display screens and so on.

Doing something to gain an edge is the heart of competition, if it's within legal boundaries. But even if there weren't high quality keyboards with maximum spacebar sensitivity, it's clear how easily they could be built, you could commission a company to make the ultimate worming keyboard, which someone actually had an idea for once, KRD maybe? But I'm not trying to blur any lines, the distinction between modified and unmodified is totally trivial for small changes. Because you could always construct a keyboard in such a way that it's not 'padded' or in any way modified by your viewpoint, but still performs better than any padded kb.

Your argument still doesn't stand at all if you accept that any level of sensitivity for a keyboard is acceptable, which presumably you do accept, provided it's not some gamepad or something with two spaces. Once again there is no standard keyboard sensitivity, and there has never been any kind of upper limit for keyboard sensitivity. People have already started off differently, and if someone happened to start worms with an ultimate keyboard of some kind, without even buying it for that express purpose, then you would have to accept that it's fair for him to use it.

Maybe your reason for rejecting any kind of modifications is because of what it could lead to, for example some kind of active component underneath a spacebar that would function like a silkworm program and give you ultra taps. But like I said, modifying isn't the issue, it's just the range of acceptable keyboard layouts that we have opinions on, and we reject anything that doesn't function essentially the same way as a normal keyboard.

In a nutshell, don't get blacks. They feel flimsy and horrible. Browns are really nice to the touch (I use them) and really quiet once you stop bottoming the keys out. Blues have a lovely higher pitched IBM click and are a little tougher to actuate. Blues were too loud for me and also didn't feel great for worms in particular, but are really addicting to type with.

I.e. Get browns!

a prosnooper lover is not likeley to have a good opinion about quality!

In a nutshell, don't get blacks. They feel flimsy and horrible. Browns are really nice to the touch (I use them) and really quiet once you stop bottoming the keys out. Blues have a lovely higher pitched IBM click and are a little tougher to actuate. Blues were too loud for me and also didn't feel great for worms in particular, but are really addicting to type with.

I.e. Get browns!

This is relevant to my interests :p

How did you get the chance to try them all out? Don't tell me you bought one of each.

(currently using stock COMPAQ "multimedia keyboard")

I trialled an old Cherry board with blacks in before I purchased my Filco. I actually enjoyed the linear feel to them at first, though typing with them became unsatisfying. But for that reason, a lot of people seem to enjoy the blacks for gaming more than the other switches. Though, once I had tried the browns I instantly saw the difference in the switches and never looked back. As for the blues, I requested some individual switches to be sent to me when I had to replace a couple of switches on my board. I fell in love with them after playing around and bought a second hand Adesso with MX blues. The sound is great fun and the extra tactility compared to the browns felt really nice. But that constant clicking seemed to be too much of a nuisance to anyone in the viscinity. The Adesso itself felt a bit tacky compared to my Filco so my opinion on how it felt while playing worms may not be completely consistent, but I definitely prefer the browns as an all rounder.

Cyber, check out the HHKB range if you're interested in that small form factor which seems to attract a lot of programmers. They look very neat and are supposedly really well built too.

If anyone is interested, there's mountains of info about all kinds of boards over on the forums at http://geekhack.org/. Swarms of computer peripheral obsessed boffins too, that make this forum look like a gentlemans club.

Edit: I've still got those switches laying around somewhere if anyone wants to test them out. Got some spare key caps too.

Thanks. My biggest problem with getting a good keyboard is that I live in the middle of nowhere, so I'd most likely have to order one from abroad - which means I can't try it before I buy it.

The Happy Hacking keyboards are a bit too minimalistic for me, though :p I guess I can live without the numpad (and might appreciate the reduced mouse/keyboard hand travel distance), but I want my home/end/arrow keys.

I had the same problem; I ended up importing my board from the US. If anyone here has ever imported electronic goods into the UK, you'll know who I'm talking about when I mention the extortionist c*nts sitting at our nations depots. So hopefully you'll believe me when I say do some homework first. But Ebay is always good for the cheaper boards.

Also raid any old keyboards you see laying around in friends houses or at work and see what switches are sitting underneath. Old IBM's with ALPS switches seem to be a popular find in attics and charity shops.

I'm most likely going to buy mine here: http://www.keyboardco.com/

They have a pretty great selection and seem to know what they're doing as a company; I know they have a guy posting news and answering queries on the geekhack forums. They're also UK-based, so hopefully that should save us all a bit of trouble.

Nice find! I would have loved that UK 105 key layout if I had the option last year. You know who to call if you need any "gifts" sending through customs.

Metacooler, no offence but to me you sound like one of the old geezers who talk about how back in the day everything was better.

I'm a 2 space fingerroller. At first I roped normally with 1 finger on space, then started to twitch, then did fingerroll on one space until my first keyboard broke. The space of my next keyboard sucked for fingerroll (you can't really tell whether it's good or not until you tried it out) so I kinda had to go for an alternative solution, or else 6 months of fingerroll practice would've been for nothing.

Personally I don't think there's a huge difference between fingerrolling on 1 or on 2 keys. You don't need to tweak your keyboard because you don't have the problem with the delay of a single key anymore, that's pretty much the only advantage. I don't see what's wrong about modifying keyboards either.. If mankind always said "yes, it's perfect, leave it as it is" to every invention ever made, I'm pretty sure I couldn't even write this post now.

Also, as Cue said (and I totally agree, he's the living example), the most important thing about roping is the control over the arrow keys. Everyone needs to find their own rhythm with the rope, be it a conservative hymn or an alternative groove (:p), that's what makes it the most individual weapon in WA.

To wrap it up, a quote from a game log.

[00:00:37.42] ••• Worm placement completed
[00:00:37.42] ••• DOPE (CF-Ðarl<z*b2b) starts turn
[00:00:37.48] [RoH`cHAKKmAN] what the hell is cruciform limp :)
[00:00:42.00] ••• DOPE (CF-Ðarl<z*b2b) fires Ninja-Seil
[00:00:57.24] [BTSxMetacooler] Gotta know it to know it
[00:01:00.56] [BTSxMetacooler] :D
[00:01:02.24] [RoH`cHAKKmAN] i guess lol
[00:01:13.14] [BTSxMetacooler] Whoops
[00:01:17.58] [BTSxMetacooler] Two space retard
[00:01:19.66] [BTSxMetacooler] Later
[00:01:24.46] [RoH`cHAKKmAN] lol?
[00:01:28.38] ••• DOPE (CF-Ðarl<z*b2b) fires Ninja-Seil
[00:01:34.40] ••• DOPE (CF-Ðarl<z*b2b) ends turn; time used: 51.98 sec turn, 0.00 sec retreat
[00:01:38.00] ••• Kilburn Deluxe (RoH`cHAKKmAN) starts turn
[00:01:38.02] *** Player disconnected: Cruciform limp (BTSxMetacooler)

I've been called a cheater and been accused of using silkworm and whatnot before, but never once did someone insult me for using 2 space keys. Grow up. :)

PS: Apologies for the non-subjective parts of this post.

I bought a Keyboard for 10 € and play FR on 1 Space.

If i play on Laptop i cant shoot as fast as with my 10 € Keyboard.
On my Laptop i can tap only with 1 finger, its the same result (really weird).

But with my Keyboard i can tap much faster then with 1 finger, if i play FR on 1 Space.

Then i tried 2 space, to see the difference. I wasnt really faster, maybe 10-15 %.
But it was a bit easier to control.

But i stay to 1 space, im glad with that :)

I never thought there were such difference between Keyboards.

I'm old fashioned and tap with 1 finger (index), 1 space. I use crappy $10 bargain bin plastic membrane keyboards, largely because I've lost a lot of keyboards to space abuse over the years and don't want to waste money. Although I'm really considering getting a mechanical keyboard - they should be able to handle the abuse, right? I just haven't found a good Australian supplier and it'll cost upwards of $60 for overseas shipping (damn heavy keyboards!). I know there aren't many Aussie wormers, but if anyone is around and knows of somewhere, let me know.

There's a lot of hate for people that use tricks like macros (which imo is cheating) and remapping keys for multi-spaces. As someone who has learned to tap pretty well the hard way, I can understand why. I never really 'learned' to tap or anything, it took years of roping and building up the right muscles (yes, just like playing the piano, having the right muscles makes a big difference), and building up the right muscle memory. When something takes years of slow and tedious and gradual improvement, it's understandable why you would get ****y at people that take shortcuts, especially shortcuts that make them look better than you. Sure, it might take months to learn to fingerroll well with your two spaces, but it'll take years to learn to tap comparably well with one (assuming it's even possible).

Personally I don't really care as long as people don't use macros, but I never play in tourneys or anything, so I don't really have any reason to care. Although I have once or twice been accused of using fingerrolls/whatever, which I'm not sure whether I should be proud that I'm that good, or annoyed that someone thinks I'm lying/cheating.

Hiya, Fluffy. :)

Damn straight to everything in your post and yes, a mechanical switch should take a lot more abuse before it changes its characteristics noticeably. Though there are vast differences between the actual cases and keycaps between different manufacturers too, so an IBM Model M or a Filco will always feel sturdier than an ABS/Rosewill M1 for half the price, even when the switches under the keys are the same blue Cherries.

You make it sound like you mash that spacebar like a woodpecker on amphetamines. I doubt many mechanical switches will last long if you're bottoming the key out 10 times per second. Sticking a new membrane on the PCB is a lot easier than replacing a soldered switch.

You make it sound like you mash that spacebar like a woodpecker on amphetamines. I doubt many mechanical switches will last long if you're bottoming the key out 10 times per second. Sticking a new membrane on the PCB is a lot easier than replacing a soldered switch.

*whistles innocently*

Only about half the keypresses are bottoming it out, but I do tend to press it pretty hard. I don't play worms all that much these days though, and a mechanical keyboard would be nice for other stuff, so I'm still thinking it might be worthwhile. Although I'm also planning on getting a new laptop so I think I'll see how much that is before I throw money at an expensive keyboard.

@KRD - Get a Filco

My keyboard is one of the only single items I've bought for my PC that cost triple digits. Meta, you would give me a very odd look if you saw how simple this thing looks.

Looked up the brown version. Seems to be smack dab in the middle of my description - Chunky, durable etc. Although if you paid triple digits in POUNDS, I assume that thing will last for many, many years?

Metacooler, no offence but to me you sound like one of the old geezers who talk about how back in the day everything was better.

I haven't been playing for THAT long; two years in October (And a good bit of that was in WWP). I hope for a day when things WILL BE better in w:a. Sure, it's a pipedream, but if no one pointed out the problem, then there wouldn't be any chance of things improving. Also, your presence in the game offends me as much as it's possible to offend me, since I don't know you, so you can say what you wish without fear of making it any worse.

I'm a 2 space fingerroller. At first I roped normally with 1 finger on space, then started to twitch, then did fingerroll on one space until my first keyboard broke. The space of my next keyboard sucked for fingerroll (you can't really tell whether it's good or not until you tried it out) so I kinda had to go for an alternative solution, or else 6 months of fingerroll practice would've been for nothing.

The price of a replacement keyboard that you're comfortable with < Your legitimacy as a player, coupled with your contribution to the decline of the community. You could even go crazy and sell the one that you didn't like.

Personally I don't think there's a huge difference between fingerrolling on 1 or on 2 keys. You don't need to tweak your keyboard because you don't have the problem with the delay of a single key anymore, that's pretty much the only advantage. I don't see what's wrong about modifying keyboards either.. If mankind always said "yes, it's perfect, leave it as it is" to every invention ever made, I'm pretty sure I couldn't even write this post now.

Clutch those straws, clutch 'em hard.

Also, as Cue said (and I totally agree, he's the living example), the most important thing about roping is the control over the arrow keys. Everyone needs to find their own rhythm with the rope, be it a conservative hymn or an alternative groove (:p), that's what makes it the most individual weapon in WA.

Well done Cue, you've given them another feeble excuse to hide behind D:


To wrap it up, a quote from a game log.

Yes, I follow through on my convictions. I don't play with cheaters. Was there something you were trying to prove?


I've been called a cheater and been accused of using silkworm and whatnot before, but never once did someone insult me for using 2 space keys.

A lot of people don't like multi-spacers. Unfortunately a lot of those people put up with them because they want to play with their friends even if there's a cheater playing too, or they don't want to be unpopular or get into arguments or whatever. It's the sort of pattern you might see emerging in a schoolyard, say. It shouldn't happen in online games, there should be moderation. But it's an ancient game, without any powers-that-be to prevent unfair things from being done - and so it's slowly dying.

Grow up. :)

Pardon?


Sure, it might take months to learn to fingerroll well with your two spaces, but it'll take years to learn to tap comparably well with one (assuming it's even possible).

I don't honestly see why it would take that long. I remember one former friend of mine saying she had noticed improvement straight away once she started using two spaces. And if you play people who have been roping legit since the game came out and are incredible, you'll see their roping still looks natural. Read my previous post about finger-rolling (Though I'm sure you know it all already.)

You can't in the same breath admit that you don't know who DarK is and lecture him about his credibility as a player, Meta...

I mean I don't like this trend any more than you do, but there are vastly more important things to take care of in this community than stepping on the toes of those who remap their keyboards. Especially those of them who have proven time and time again that they're genuinely great at a lot more than just one scheme and have in fact done things that made the community a better place as well. Do you honestly believe that having a group of moderators banning people from WormNet whenever they catch them admit to using a certain type of software would do more good than bad?

Generally I find that the broader perspective a player has, the more different circles he moves in, the more schemes he's competent at, the less things like this will bother him. Or her. Most such people on WormNet that I've met over the years have found better ways of contributing to this whole project, which left them happier and the community better off. I again implore you to do the same; your zealotry has better uses than this nitpicking and more deserving recipients than DarK and Mablak are, heh.

Now that I see that discussing with you is pointless, go ahead and call people cheaters who are not cheaters. I won't feel offended anymore since you just don't know better. My old geezer comparison wasn't that far-fetched after all.

In my opinion using 2 spaces is not cheating.

If I felt it offered an advantage I might think differently but I really don't think it does.

If 2 spaces is cheating, would 3 spaces then be even more of a help? Or 4.

It means nothing really. Using more keys just means there's more keys to press at the incorrect timing.

Tch, metacooler avoids my only main argument about padded spaces. Gotta provide some reason why padding would be wrong in comparison to an ideal keyboard that performs equally or better.

Two spaces though, I do have to agree that in many ways it doesn't offer an advantage in overall roping skill, nor does finger rolling in general. But in some ways, particularly in making tapping quite easy, it does offer an advantage. And it just seems like two keys will always offer fewer missed taps than one.

But I really have no ill feelings towards most people who use 2 spaces, because in general they don't consider it cheating at all, and were probably taught the method by someone else, assuming it was accepted. I'd rather just persuade them to go back to trying one space. And for someone like dark who actually can finger roll on one space, it does seem silly to care about what he's using.

I don't like this trend any more than you do, but there are vastly more important things to take care of in this community than stepping on the toes of those who remap their keyboards.

Like what? D:

I don't see any other pressing issue in the community. It could do with being a lot bigger, but that's hardly something that can be addressed now.

And I don't want to **** them off, I want to either be rid of them or contribute to forcing them to play on level terms with everyone else.

Do you honestly believe that having a group of moderators banning people from WormNet whenever they catch them admit to using a certain type of software would do more good than bad?

Since when was that the plan? In an ideal situation, the job would be done by software, not a roving group of moderators working by word of mouth. What do you take me for :mad:


Now that I see that discussing with you is pointless, go ahead and call people cheaters who are not cheaters. I won't feel offended anymore since you just don't know better. My old geezer comparison wasn't that far-fetched after all.

That looks an awful lot like abandoning your sinking ship, Dark. I was wondering when you'd run out of steam.

Tch, metacooler avoids my only main argument about padded spaces. Gotta provide some reason why padding would be wrong in comparison to an ideal keyboard that performs equally or better.

I replied to that already, you even quoted me ._.

I didn't reply to your last post because it seemed what I said went over your head, you effectively just recycled your first post, and I don't have all the time in the world ;o


in general they don't consider it cheating at all, and were probably taught the method by someone else, assuming it was accepted. I'd rather just persuade them to go back to trying one space.

Your first point I mentioned earlier in the thread; it's a large part of why I bother to be vocal in my activism against cheating. As for persuading them to play fair, can you name one player who has has been converted by this method in your entire worming experience? There is no law that says players can't cheat, so why would they give it up once they've grown accustomed to having the advantage? They can just spew dozens of BS reasons why it's ok to do it, and carry on. I've seen this a thousand times if I've seen it once, and I've long since stopped trying to persuade or be polite to them, as I'm sure you've noticed.


And for someone like dark who actually can finger roll on one space, it does seem silly to care about what he's using.

..But the result of doing it on two spaces is not the same. At all. Why would I have a problem with multi-spacing at all otherwise? o.0

..But the result of doing it on two spaces is not the same. At all. Why would I have a problem with multi-spacing at all otherwise? o.0

That's what I'd like to know too, yes. Why oh why?

Do you really think you know enough about roping and keyboards to be able to so effortlessly contradict the findings of all these people who have been doing it for something like 25 years between themselves? Is it that impossible to imagine that there may be more to roping than spamming taps along the ceiling of the same WxW map for hours on end?

I'm not giving up on you yet, though. If you're interested in my views regarding the other questions in your last post, find me on WormNet or in the IRC channel from under my avatar, nickname is same as here. This thread has seen enough points fall on deaf ears and could do with not being derailed further.

I replied to that already, you even quoted me ._.

I didn't reply to your last post because it seemed what I said went over your head, you effectively just recycled your first post, and I don't have all the time in the world ;o


I was reiterating some of my point because you really didn't reply to my main argument. All you claimed was that buying a super amazing keyboard was unlikely, most of those keyboards aren't suited for tapping, and that anyone forking out money was probably a cheater, none of which is really true. But it doesn't matter whether it's likely for someone to buy/build/find such a keyboard or not, if you still accept that using an ultimately sensitive keyboard is fair game. It begs for you to point out why your stance isn't contradictory.


Your first point I mentioned earlier in the thread; it's a large part of why I bother to be vocal in my activism against cheating. As for persuading them to play fair, can you name one player who has has been converted by this method in your entire worming experience? There is no law that says players can't cheat, so why would they give it up once they've grown accustomed to having the advantage? They can just spew dozens of BS reasons why it's ok to do it, and carry on. I've seen this a thousand times if I've seen it once, and I've long since stopped trying to persuade or be polite to them, as I'm sure you've noticed.


Being vocal against 'cheating' doesn't really affect anyone if you have no good argument to stand by. Giving up clearly isn't going to solve anything, and neither is alienating everyone you play who you suspect might be using something.

And yes, I can name multiple players, such as m3ntal and komo. They used to use notching in BnG, and now they don't. It makes BnG way easier for most shots, but they chose to give up that advantage after seeing how it detracts from the game.

I don't honestly see why it would take that long. I remember one former friend of mine saying she had noticed improvement straight away once she started using two spaces. And if you play people who have been roping legit since the game came out and are incredible, you'll see their roping still looks natural. Read my previous post about finger-rolling (Though I'm sure you know it all already.)

What's natural? Tapping is more than just the ability to press space fast - half of it it has nothing to do with pressing space fast and is actually all about timing. The naive view of tapping is that it's just pressing the spacebar as fast as you possibly can, but if you're doing it right, every single press of the space should count. Timing taps so that you release the rope as soon as it hits is something you can't get from two spaces or macros (at least I hope not), and it's something that greatly enhances tapping (especially when you're not in tight spaces). In my experience timing is also something easily lost, unlike the ability to press space fast, so I've had plenty of unnatural warming periods where my timing is off and hence I'm sucking with controlling the taps but still pressing space fast.

But really, beyond showing off, especially fast tapping isn't useful. A little bit of tapping can help give you some control in certain situations, but for general roping it tends to be slower than just roping conservatively, and a lot more error-prone.

Mablak, you don't need a huge list of arguments. Even if you use a gamer keyboard you can't rope as fast as fr, that's what Metacooler is trying to show you.

Umm Fluffy replied when I was writing this post...

Spare me with that sinking ship stuff, actually I'd get your point if I were flying through RRs and let you look like an amateur because I'm "cheating". But that's not the case, in fact my RRing is far from perfect, so why is it such a bother to you?

Of course you can come at me saying that 2 space tapping is cheating, but it's been acknowledged as a legitimate way of roping by the majority of the community. One of the main reasons being that several gaming keyboards actually have a space bar that's split in 2 keys. Would it be cheating to you if I uninstalled my key remapping program and bought one of those keyboards?

Mablak, you don't need a huge list of arguments. Even if you use a gamer keyboard you can't rope as fast as fr, that's what Metacooler is trying to show you.

Umm Fluffy replied when I was writing this post...

You do need a solid argument if you want to convince anyone of well, anything. You can't give up arguing and just expect people to understand your viewpoint, especially on such a nebulous issue as acceptable keyboards. It's unreasonable to expect that WA players, even rational ones, automatically understand why certain keyboards are acceptable and why some aren't.

Also, as I said, I was agreeing on that point, that 2 spaces can pretty much offer fewer missed hits than one spacebar, no matter how sensitive it is. Of course, the fact that 2 spaces provides a fr advantage isn't an argument that 2 spaces is wrong in itself, just a defense against saying one space and two spaces can be exactly the same.

I've tried hard not to involve myself in this argument but I think I've come up with a sound proof explanation as to why using two space bars should not be considered as cheating, addressing the points that everyone here has made. I'll also make it clear now that I have tried, but never used this method for any prolonged period of time. My argument is coming from a strictly technical point of view, which should be considered comepletely legitimate, as the accused action of cheating here is being limited to a hardware difference in input by these players.

The first point I'll note is that 'finger rolling' on a single space bar seems to have been deemed an acceptable method of roping (In this thread and otherwise) due to it simply being a modified use of a single key, in which the players themselves have to master the technique in a seperate fashion to the normal, single finger thrashing.

But what really is the difference between using a single key, and using two keys? Aside from the obvious answers, let's look at the mechanics of a key. Regardless of the keyboard you are using (Every keyboard is different but the actuation method is exactly the same), you must push a key down to a certain point until the conductive element or mechanical switch completes an electrical circuit on the PCB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board), forming what your computer sees as a 'key press'. If you have any moderate knowledge of physics, you will understand that a low current circuit like this needs only a very small distance between conductors for the whole connection to be broken. This means that your finger needs only to rise (Allowing the key to rise) a very small amount before the circuit is disconnected and the key can be pressed again. It may be worth mentioning here that you should remember your keyboard can register your key presses faster than you could ever provide it with.

This information leads onto my main point; Worms Armageddon does not register a second space press while one space is already being pressed*. Test this for yourself and you will see that you must make multiple awkward key presses for the actuation to take effect if one space key is already being held down. This means that even if you are using two keys for this same action, you must lift one of your fingers enough to disconnect the key before you can continue to connect another.

I'll now go back to my original question; what really is the difference between using a single key, and using two keys?

I'm going to avoid making two identical lists here showing that almost everything concerning the electronics of both setups are exactly the same, and hope that you've all caught on to what I am saying by now. Thus leaving us with the only difference between using a single key, and using two keys; The spring mechanics, or finger support, provided by using two keys instead of one. By this I mean that using two keys allows both fingers to rest on a key for the entire duration of the other keys actuation. Comparing this to a single key, where you would need to physically lift one of your fingers from the key every time your other finger performed an actuation.

The conclusion of this little essay is to say that regardless of whether you are using a single key or otherwise, the only difference that can be debated is the technique in which a player uses their fingers to perform the same actions. One FR player could argue that the support of two keys is advantageous to their roping, whereas another FR player could argue that the extra force needed to use both keys impairs their roping. This completely nullifies any accusation of an advantage to any one person as the result will always be different depending on the players themselves.

Just to be absolutely clear:
You cannot physically press two keys (or more) in succession to perform the same action, any faster than you could with a single key. The method in which you press the keys is different, but this comes down to technique - Something that can be debated but not condemned.

*Tested with AHK (http://www.autohotkey.com/) on Windows XP and Windows 7 on a non-ghosting/keylock keyboard - W:A Version 3.6.29.0

Your analysis is pretty sound Green, and hopefully everyone is aware that two keys doesn't imply that you can register presses while one key is already held down. I think everyone should read your post and also make sure they can articulate exactly how one space works versus two spaces. But as you said, there is a difference between one and two keys due to the ability to rest your fingers on each key when you're dealing with two.

It seems to me that there's no need for much upwards motion if you're using two keys, so you can really practice a much more conservative finger motion, and thus it's less taxing to use two keys. However, I will admit that I don't know how exactly I would use finger rolling if I tried it on two keys, I've only learned to use it on one. It might be that my method would involve exactly the same action. But in my learning process on one key, I definitely had to learn to bring one finger entirely off the key while the other was pressing down, I feel I wouldn't have needed to practice as large of a 'backswing' had I been learning with two keys.

In either case, your point stands that a good two-space finger roller and a good 1-space finger roller will have roughly the same motion, maybe too small a difference to care about. Exactly the same motion seems up for debate. From my experience though, having taken multiple years of on and off training just to be able to use one-key finger rolling aptly, and seeing how quickly players have learned to use two key finger rolling, there is still a tangible difference.

I still might have to accept two key users eventually, since my beliefs are partly rooted in the tradition of WA, which is always changing. Because there's no authority whatsoever regarding what equipment is acceptable for WA, I think the community's general opinions are one tool we have to shape guidelines for the game, to help us escape from pure arbitrariness. Of course there are other more objective tools as well, such as deciding based on the skill level we desire out of the game. Because of skill considerations for example, I would never accept macro programs as legal, even though someone might somewhat justifiably want WA to be an easier game. My point is simply that there are also other routes with which to debate use of two spaces, aside from arguments about similarity.

How about implementing this suggestion (http://feedback.worms2d.info/forums/5998-worms-armageddon/suggestions/100839-option-to-change-gamecontrols-in-game?ref=title) and allowing two different keys to be set for the same action (like in Half-Life... and many other games)?

No one would have to use 3rd party remapping tools anymore and hence no one could complain about it being a cheat. :p

You do need a solid argument if you want to convince anyone of well, anything.

Thanks for help, I didn't know !

It's unreasonable to expect that WA players, even rational ones, automatically understand why certain keyboards are acceptable and why some aren't.

What? Every keyboard is acceptable.

Of course, the fact that 2 spaces provides a fr advantage isn't an argument that 2 spaces is wrong in itself, just a defense against saying one space and two spaces can be exactly the same.

So if it cannot be the same, why it shouldn't be an argument?

How about implementing this suggestion (http://feedback.worms2d.info/forums/5998-worms-armageddon/suggestions/100839-option-to-change-gamecontrols-in-game?ref=title) and allowing two different keys to be set for the same action (like in Half-Life... and many other games)?

No one would have to use 3rd party remapping tools anymore and hence no one could complain about it being a cheat. :p

Your suggestion would change the behavior so that there IS an advantage to 2 keys designated as spacebar.

Do you do this on purpous, franpa?

Your suggestion would change the behavior so that there IS an advantage to 2 keys designated as spacebar.

Explain yourself!

Green, your technicalities where the PCB action is concerned are all very well, but you haven't addressed the way the game reacts when you shoot with more than one trigger. AGAIN I'm forced to point out that horrible, remedial players that use two or more spaces can fire at a ridiculous rate, while seasoned pros with a single unmodified spacebar won't fire any faster than most people, they just fire with great timing and control. This makes your little essay more or less null and void, I'm afraid..

Nando, that is a contemptible idea.

I'm disappointed to see that you have skipped over my post and not had the decency to understand it and take the opportunity to retract your accusations in a dignified manner.

Nevertheless; My post was comparing FR with a single key vs. FR with two keys. Read my post again and see that I have addressed the way the game reacts "when you shoot with more than one trigger" and how two keys gives a human no mechanical advantage over using a single key.

You can not physically press two keys faster than one

Please take the time to read my post properly and fully comprehend the contradictions it makes towards your argument. At that point, tell me if anything I have said is not true and only then continue to disregard my efforts to clear up this deluded hole you've dug yourself into.

And here I was so curious about how you'd answer to my post, Metacooler.. I'm disappointed.

Ugh..

AGAIN I'm forced to point out that horrible, remedial players that use two or more spaces can fire at a ridiculous rate

I read your post. And I've said the above before. And NO ONE has acknowledged it, including you. It's the fact of the matter, and you're all terribly good at speculation and theory, but it's time to start admitting that if your reasoning was that impeccable, this wouldn't be the case. I have no more time to give to this, so long as you all have your eyes so firmly shut.

Dark, you opted out of this discussion a while ago. You blanked a really long post of mine, and said you were out. You can't jump back in a page later and expect me to carry on paying attention to you.

Okay so I've been asked to jump in this thread. Sort of.
Though it pains me to say this. Mapping spacebar to two keys is as legit as say- using a mouse in a FPS game which swaps sensitivity on the fly for when you jump in a helicopter or whatever.

It does unbalance the playing field, but in the end it's a question of morality.

Also I only kind of half read this convo. If this post isn't actually relevant to the topic then feel free to 'trololol' at me. :)

I read your post. And I've said the above before. And NO ONE has acknowledged it, including you. It's the fact of the matter, and you're all terribly good at speculation and theory, but it's time to start admitting that if your reasoning was that impeccable, this wouldn't be the case. I have no more time to give to this, so long as you all have your eyes so firmly shut.

Dark, you opted out of this discussion a while ago. You blanked a really long post of mine, and said you were out. You can't jump back in a page later and expect me to carry on paying attention to you.

Dude, your inability to discuss a topic on the base of facts rather than personal belief is only topped by your ignorance.

Noone here has his eyes shut, if you had a solid argument to base your ridiculous claims on, then there'd be room for discussion, but so far you've only been saying "2 spaces is unorthodox and gay, so it's cheating". Aren't you the one with the blindfold? :rolleyes:

The post you're referring to has nothing in it which has to be discussed because it's all just your opinion, nothing of what you wrote were facts. How would I answer to a post which basically says "you're wrong because I'm right"?

And telling me I'm out of this thread just because you can't come up with a proper answer.. May I quote you:

That looks an awful lot like abandoning your sinking ship, Dark Metacooler. I was wondering when you'd run out of steam.

Sheesh.

I explicitly explained I was joining this discussion from a technical standpoint, and that I use neither of these finger rolling techniques. The only reason I did so, was to attempt to clear up this mess that had been made.

I have been following this thread from the day it was created and have read every single post that has been made. For this reason I have addressed the mechanical implications on the matter, I have addressed the in-game response to said mechanics, and I have discussed our physical possibilities (and impossibilities) in regards to both. There is not one single part of your argument that I have not addressed and/or contradicted, and it is in fact your replies that have no debatable value.

Have you actually ever compared the roping speeds of a 'finger roller' using a single key vs. duel keys? Have you discussed/are you fully aware of the amount of experience/playing time that these players have had to practice such techniques? Or are you simply missing the point and comparing single finger tapping to finger rolling?

You continually state "facts", yet have shown us nothing to back up these claims you are so eager to make.

If you honestly believe the contradictions to your argument that I have made are incorrect, please state and discuss them before you repeat yourself again. I couldn't express more, that simply for the progression of this debate, I would be happy for you to counter what I have said in a civilised manner. Though, I'm almost certain that you're completely incorrect in your judgement now, after seeing your most recent responses, but I cannot disregard this will to prove us all wrong that you have.

Back up your claims and discuss the details you feel are being warped by our own arguments or you will continue to frustrate all involved here. Unless of course that has now become your intention.

Nando, that is a contemptible idea.
Why, because it would leave you with no "cheaters" to point the finger at?

How can something that would level the playing field for everyone be a bad idea, when clearly you're complaining that remapping is giving people an unfair advantage? If that is truly what's bothering you, why not get rid of that inequality?

Dark, you wanted out. You can't expect to give up on the discussion, then come back and take more shots. What you're saying is very hypocritical.

If you really want to continue, get to the back of the line :mad:

Go back and answer my post that you blanked, then I'll go find whatever you've left since then and answer it. Fair is fair.


Green, go and read Dark's previous post where he quoted a game log. Notice that I instantly recognize that he uses two spacebars. Now ask yourself; If there's REALLY no difference between using one and two, how did I know? Am I psychic?

Nando, forcing everyone to change their play style to suit the people who have decided to remap their keyboards is just not the right approach. I don't think anyone (Except perhaps those people themselves) could possibly advocate such a scheme.

Green, go and read Dark's previous post where he quoted a game log. Notice that I instantly recognize that he uses two spacebars. Now ask yourself; If there's REALLY no difference between using one and two, how did I know? Am I psychic?
Judging from your posts so far, you probably accuse everyone that taps somewhat fast of using two keys for space. Every once in a while, you're bound to be correct.

Nando, forcing everyone to change their play style to suit the people who have decided to remap their keyboards is just not the right approach.
How is giving an option to remap your keys forcing anyone to change their play style? Quite to the contrary, I'd say there's a certain play style for each and every person, but having only one single setup for the keys can't possibly suit all of those styles. This one setup might be comfortable for some people but not so much for others. Isn't that even more unfair? Why do you think nearly all other skill-based games allow for key bindings to be rearranged?

Green, go and read Dark's previous post where he quoted a game log. Notice that I instantly recognize that he uses two spacebars. Now ask yourself; If there's REALLY no difference between using one and two, how did I know? Am I psychic?

The answer is, you didn't know. This post is the closest you have come to admitting that you are wrong about your accusations. The question from my last post was there to illustrate the point I had made previously, in that you will see no noticable difference between a 'finger roller' using one key or two. Dark is an experienced player and could have been using a single key, yet you'd still have accused him of the same.

But forget about that for the moment. You have yet to note anything that I have said which is incorrect. Please, consider the following and then answer a single question..

Imagine if I were to explain to you how it is impossible for the game to register two keys being tapped in succession faster than one (Which I have), and that I was also to explain that the timing of your fingers movement, to maximise the speed of your tapping in this situation, would be exactly the same if you were using one key or two (Which I have).

Can you explain to me how it is possible to tap faster with two keys in comparison to one?

Don't be afraid to get technical.

Metacooler, I've explained to you why that post you're referring to has no debatable value.

This thread is running in circles. So much.

Agreed that the answer is, he didn't know :p. I think metacooler is the only one making this go in circles, since he insists upon things that he refuses to go into depth on, and just keeps explaining what he believes without justifying why he believes it. Also just kind of skimming everyone else's posts, it seems.

But we should still talk about the two-space issue anyway. I was just thinking that as you say Green, you can't tap faster with one space versus two spaces, once you roughly reach your limit. But the learning process for each is slightly different I think, as I kind of expressed in my other post.

I think I should change my opinion of two spaces as cheating, to simply not respecting it as much as one space. Especially since I've never felt strongly enough about the issue to suggest that in leagues, two-space users should be banned, whereas I do feel that strongly regarding things like macro programs. That view is also more consistent with the fact that I could be wrong about two spaces being easier to learn, since I mostly have nothing to go on but my own experience learning one-space fr.

Ok, I'll forgive you for thinking what you think, Green. I guess you're just taking a by-the-book standpoint, which makes perfect sense unless you've experienced this stuff first-hand. Mablak, I can't vouch for you, you've been around for centuries D:

I apologise if I've come off as aggressive at all, which may have led you to think that I'm just blowing hot air. Obviously I should just give an actual example of what I'm talking about, then leave this thread alone.

Attached is one of the very first games I ever played in Armageddon (I started from the beginning, and found a suitable replay like four games in). Codec has two spaces. He's obviously inexperienced - in fact, he's not a little clumsy, sluggish and inept. But look at how fast he's firing when he uses them. I trust this will help to illuminate the difference for you.

Codec has two spaces.

He's using a macro tool. Not only is it very obvious, but he's also saying "program" in the ingame chat.

Yeah Constipated Silkworm is pretty retarded, you can't really rope well at all with it D: at least not with a lost of practice

so if there were no differents between 2 and 1 space, why should there be a reason to use 2 spaces?

You are simply infuriating, Metacooler. It's unbelievable.

Not only are you making more factless assumptions, but you've completely missed (or forgotten) my initial point of distancing my argument from a position where it could be considered a biased or false opinion.

On a silver platter, I have laid out the most logical explanation of this whole situation, giving you the upmost respect in doing so, by refraining myself from mocking your inadequate debating skills. Yet now, somehow, you have convinced yourself that you can not only ignore the same questions I have been asking you for the last 4 posts, but actually admit my argument is correct, and continue to disregard it because I am "taking a by-the-book standpoint".

I have played with players of all sorts and you can rest assured that I, once being an inquisitive roper myself, know what single key and double key finger rolling looks like. Take this into account if you need to, but I am quite sure by now that I have proved your argument wrong in almost every sense of the word. You have continued (and may yet continue) to make effortless claims and false assumptions and have yet to give any hard evidence as to why you are correct.

You are simply an overly stubborn character and I doubt you would back down from this argument if your life depended on it. Not only are you insulting to every member here who has tried to reason with you in a civilised manner, but you are quite literally just an increasingly infuriating inhabitant of this colourful community.

Simply put, you are a moron.

so if there were no differents between 2 and 1 space, why should there be a reason to use 2 spaces?

Please have the courtesy to read the whole thread before adding to this debate.

so if there were no differents between 2 and 1 space, why should there be a reason to use 2 spaces?

Finger roll on one space is extremely hard to learn, if your space is not padded. People generally go for 2 spaces because of this.

But the comparison should really be between two spaces with maximum sensitivity and one space with maximum sensitivity, in which case there is not much difference at all.

People have done this sort of thing for years, the only remapping I have done was using control because I broke my space...

The thing is, the playing field is perfectly level, if you wanted to map 2 spaces you could so stop crying.

He's using a macro tool. Not only is it very obvious, but he's also saying "program" in the ingame chat.

Yeh, you shoot yourself in the foot by using that replay as an example Metacooler. Not only was he was using a macro, it also emphasises the fact that re mapping your keyboard isnt going to make you a better roper.

Finger roll on one space is extremely hard to learn, [...]
I do it without problems.. :eek:

I just tap the space bar with one finger. I need a new keyboard though because sometimes my space bar simply refuses to register. It is about 4 years old, time for a change methinks.

I've been speculating (and actually playing the game ;)) for several years already, and I have a couple points to cover.

1) Does fast tapping matter?
2) How is it done?

1. I've heard a lot of hypocrites telling me that tap speed doesn't matter at all. Top arguments being:

- you cover space faster just flying;
- good control of the arrows covers for slow tapping.

Of course, both are bull**** just like the good old "size doesn't matter". First, covering vast areas is harldy a substantial part of any roping scheme (shoppers may be an exception), leaving everything else to the control. Second argument kicks in here but again... Give me an example of a slow tapper who would be anywhere close to those who mastered fast tapping in schemes like roper or rope race. My argument being that fast tapping doesn't in any way hinder your control over the rope, it actually improves it by a big deal (e.g. in tight spots, helps you fix the worm in mid-air, etc.) I'm appauled by having to provide arguments, really.

2. HOW do they do it after all?!

I'd deluded myself from the beginning, thinking that putting twitching aside leaves me with FR as the only option to boost the tapping. It was always obvious to me that given a good enough keyboard there's no difference between using one or multiple keys (read Green's posts to know why). I've been practicing FR for quite a while only to see that it doesn't actually help. Problem is that you only boost your consecutive attaches of the rope. It doesn't, however, ipmrove individual shots at all. This is what helps you distinguish cheesy finger-rollers from players who control their every rope shot. What's that secret technic they are using then? The closest explanation I've seen so far was this post made by Fluffy saying:

[qoute]
...I never really 'learned' to tap or anything, it took years of roping and building up the right muscles (yes, just like playing the piano, having the right muscles makes a big difference), and building up the right muscle memory...
[/quote]

Is this it? :O There's also the keyboard factor, although Fluffy seems to have ruled that out saying he's using those crappy membrane boards. Could it be that some boards do have some insane sensitivity? What about those mechanical boards you've discussed earlier? Please, people, show me a way to go with the damn tapping, I'm getting deperate. T_T

I'm retiring my keyboard pretty soon. Been using it since day 1, it's a kb from a compaq 486. (18 years old) The space still works and all, but the enter and the shift keys are each missing springs (stupidly lost them when I was cleaning). Looking forward to a keyboard with less travel. w00t.

Wizard, get a Filco Majestouch Linear Force for gaming. It has Cherry MX Black switches, which are mechanical switches with no click. Those switches are amazing for anything gaming-related, including tapping.

Really, any keyboard with Cherry MX Black switches is great for gaming. Red is good too, but that's the older linear style. Cherry MX Red switches might be better for tapping, but it's probably negiligible.

Give me an example of a slow tapper who would be anywhere close to those who mastered fast tapping in schemes like roper or rope race.

This is off the top of my head, take your pick: c0o1, Cueshark, Dextah090, Flamie, FlowingWater/franz, Lex, LordHound, Mil2, Ryan, uLeaD, VolcoM, Wargod.

These are people who all tap slower than Mablak, who himself doesn't finger roll (often). If you add Warmer to the schemes that count, the list easily doubles, especially when you consider players who (perhaps undeservedly) aren't quite as famous as the ones above.

My argument being that fast tapping doesn't in any way hinder your control over the rope, it actually improves it by a big deal (e.g. in tight spots, helps you fix the worm in mid-air, etc.) I'm appauled by having to provide arguments, really.

What you're seemingly not taking into account is that there are many ways of approaching the same RR or Roper map. Even on a tight one, a technique that doesn't involve tapping anywhere near as fast as is humanly possible will be measurably faster, measurably more reliable and measurably more stylish. And again, introduce the Warmer scheme to the argument and the situation only becomes clearer.

Sure, it's not actually a hindrance to be capable of pressing your spacebar quickly, but in real actual practice, this is true only if you have mastered every other aspect of roping already and are mature/experienced enough to realise when it's required and especially when it isn't. Just ask Anubis and Mablak about it, they're both capable of insane taps but ended up rarely using them at all as they got really great at roping, simply because good timing wins over sheer frequency. And unless you're some sort of alien, you just can't have both at the same time. And even if you could, it would only make sense to do it if it's the approach to roping that comes more naturally to you than others, because only then will you enjoy yourself enough to really make something of it.

Without knowing more about who you are and where you draw your experience from, I find it hard to give you a more detailed explanation of the way I see things. I'd find it a lot easier to make myself understood if you let me interrogate you beforehand, for example in that IRC channel under my avatar on the left. Anyhow, I hope you won't take anything I wrote in this post or previously in the thread as a personal attack on you or anyone else. I just like discussing this a lot and rarely get the chance to do it. :p

I'm absolutely not talking about inhuman speeds here, KRD. :) Not even about frequency, I think. When I do shadow, for example, I often can't pull that brief shot fast enough, like there was delay or summat. I'm not a fan of spamming extra shots, I just want the damn rope to shoot exactly when I need it, to fit my natural timing. Dunno if I put it clear enough. =\

*Went to grab myself some IRC client*

I totally agree with KRD here and that is probably first time that I agree with someone about tapping.

I personally learned finger rolling in a week and then decided to stop using it because I found that it killed my old style that I was building for few years.

You should also know that without finger roll you can do single "tap" very fast... just have to get used to timing of your spacebar.

...without finger roll you can do single "tap" very fast... just have to get used to timing of your spacebar.

Starting to believe that, hm-m-m.. :)

In case KRD or Mab are still reading...

This is off the top of my head, take your pick: c0o1, Cueshark, Dextah090, Flamie, FlowingWater/franz, Lex, LordHound, Mil2, Ryan, uLeaD, VolcoM, Wargod.

These are people who all tap slower than Mablak, who himself doesn't finger roll (often). If you add Warmer to the schemes that count, the list easily doubles, especially when you consider players who (perhaps undeservedly) aren't quite as famous as the ones above.

I've seen Ryan, Flamie and Lex, and all of 'em are capable of very fast tapping. They may not use it as often as Mablak does but I'd account that to experience.

What you're seemingly not taking into account is that there are many ways of approaching the same RR or Roper map. Even on a tight one, a technique that doesn't involve tapping anywhere near as fast as is humanly possible will be measurably faster, measurably more reliable and measurably more stylish. And again, introduce the Warmer scheme to the argument and the situation only becomes clearer.

Hm-m-m, always thought fast tapping was considered stylish. No matter the technique, there will always be plenty of spots where you just NEED to reattach very fast or you will lose the speed significantly. Let alone all the possibilities that fast attaching opens to you. I hope you aren't gonna deny this.

Sure, it's not actually a hindrance to be capable of pressing your spacebar quickly, but in real actual practice, this is true only if you have mastered every other aspect of roping already and are mature/experienced enough to realise when it's required and especially when it isn't. Just ask Anubis and Mablak about it, they're both capable of insane taps but ended up rarely using them at all as they got really great at roping, simply because good timing wins over sheer frequency

First, Mablak DOES tap very frequently, and often this helps him get great times at ttrrs. Second, no matter your experience, why deal with handicap? Why would I build my roping style around the handicap of not being sharp enough?

My problem with finger roll is that all the kbs I've tried so far are ignoring a lot of my taps at times, thus obsoleting this method. I.e. I cut the rope with one button, then press the other, and the kb just ignores the keypress (no matter the frequency of tapping).

With one finger I physically can't get my finger to press the key faster. Placing paper underneath the key does make it more sensitive but what's the point? Unless you are an android.. or Mablak, lol.

P.S.: Is this the same person on the replays I attached??

P.P.S.: I really hope to get an answer. A YouTube video of Mablak hammering his kb would be ideal. :D

[EDIT]

Never mind the replays, not the same guy Oo

I dont FR, I can tap fast enough, as can many other ropers. Learning FR wont improve anything, its all about overall technique.

Many people discard the importance of arrow control, and the fact that the more you fly in trr, the faster you will be.

All "tapping" is, is shooting the rope. It doesnt matter how fast or how often you tap, what matters is WHEN you tap. So many people tap quickly over and over again and all they do is slow themselves down. You can tell a good roper not by when he taps, but by when he doesnt tap.

As for people saying that using two spaces is "cheating"... youre just wrong. This is said by people who simply havent put in the 1000s of hours of practice that other players have and want to try and degrade the skills of another player by saying they are "cheating".

Firstly, ANYONE can create two spaces to use, its no hax or special secret, ANYONE can do it. I dont, but if someone else does then thats perfectly fine, its just a different way of pressing space.

Secondly, for those of you who call it "cheating" I suggest you go and create two spaces. Will you rope any better? No. Will you get faster times? No. So come off it.

Not just anyone can create two space keys which generate both a keydown and keyup event upon each true keydown reliably on every keystroke. It doesn't work reliably in AHK, at least. The easy multi-space rebinding script which has been posted on these forums somewhere requires the player to keyup on each key before they can activate the other, which is just as much a hindrance as having one spacebar, making it worthless.