I know that a fair share of us play Team Fortress 2. And I bet we've often thought "boy, this map really sucks" or "boy, this map is really unbalanced" or "boy, I wish someone would make a map like this". Me and Splapp sure have! Well I say "why can't we?". With all the variety and possibilities that TF2 gives us, with all the assets that it provides, with all the fantabulous ideas that we keep coming up with on this forum, surely we can muster something better that a lot of things that wretch internet servers.

I say YES WE CAN!

This thread is now open to any ideas, designs and other suggestions in terms of map-making-tude. Please keep it reasonable. :) (to start off, a CTF or CP map would probably be best to keep things simple)


P.S. To not sound like I just want easy fame with no work, I do have some knowledge on using Hammer.
P.P.S. This is probably a good read: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/TF2_Design_Theory

I think it'd be a cool idea, we could at least attempt it. The maps would have to be well designed though, we dont need any more Egypts or Junctions with crappy layout and uncappable points :p

GOD egypt is ****.....

but yeah, hey, I'm up for tossing in my 2 cents.

I found Junction fun...:(

I quite like Junction.

But then, I play Pyro so I like narrow, twisty corridors and tight spaces :p.

Either way, sounds fun. I think a CTF might be the best place to start, although I dunno. If we did, rule #1 is probably to include several different routes to the intel. Three sounds reasonable. Each route should probably cater to different classes, too.

Hmm... this might make a nice alternate route:

32333

Basically, it's a pair of narrow, twisty corridors (maybe they could be sewers a la 2fort), with a one way gate in each, that lead straight to the intel on each side. The idea for an attacker would be to run down one one-way corridor, grab the intel, and then run back out down the other one-way corridor. The routes should be quite long and twisty to make for a trade-off of "avoids central sniper area vs. long time": the twistiness adds to journey time, but also discourages snipers, who should really be operating in the central, open areas. Should cater fairly well for a number of classes: pyros, heavy/medics and spies on attack, demomen and engineers on defence.

Notes:

1. Obviously the two corridors should be clearly signposted at the start so that people don't go down the wrong one and have a wasted trip when they hit the wrong side of the gate.
2. There is a question of where in the tunnel the one-way gate should go. At the midpoint, closer to each side's attackers, or closer to each side's defenders? (Bear in mind that once an intel carrier makes it past the "return" gate, they're basically home free - which suggests that the "return" gate should be closer to the attackers to me, to give the defenders a little more chance to stop the escape). If closer to one or the other, how much closer? Also, how twisty should it be?
3. This should only really count as one alternate route: there should probably be another two to the intel. Unless you feel that this is such an effective attacking route that there only needs to be one other one.

So, thoughts?

Long, linear corridors are generally ugly, play badly and hint of poor map design and skills.
By all means have linear corridors and they can seem a bit long, but don't have them running the length of the map. Just adding twists and turns into that corridor doesn't really improve things.
A CTF map would be quite a difficult starting point, but I'm not sure what would be better. Arena mabye?

Corridors should never be too narrow. At a minimum, make it so three people can stand next to each other.

Just warning you lot, map making is bloody difficult.

I think the biggest issue is finding enough people to playtest the level.
How many from T17F even play TF2? 5? 10? If we want it to be successful we need to test the level after each iteration of change.

I think the biggest issue is finding enough people to playtest the level.
How many from T17F even play TF2? 5? 10? If we want it to be successful we need to test the level after each iteration of change.

Play testing would be a bugger. If we could get 10 people, that would probably be enough. It would be best to make the map symmetrical (which leads to the question: rotational or mirror symmetry) so the level designer(s) would only need to create half the map each iteration and then simply rotate/mirror a copy and attach.
I'm not sure how the Source engine does any of this, but it has roots in the Quake engine. I've done map making in the idTech games, but that's about it.

Well, source games use bsp, so you can use any editor you want really, Hammer is not required. But I'm sure it supports copy-pasting parts of the level.

Also, don't get too crazy with the theme of the level, I don't think anybody wants to make an entire new set of level textures.. so no space stations :p

Well, source games use bsp, so you can use any editor you want really, Hammer is not required. But I'm sure it supports copy-pasting parts of the level.

Using Hammer would probably be best as it's game-specific and provides better support for the technical stuff.
I doubt I'll do any of this though, as I havn't got the time or patience to learn my way around another editor and engine. Unless of course, my limited ability from GTKRadiant (and Doom3 and Quake 3) is directly transferable into Hammer and the Source engine.

Oooh, I've been thinking about learning to use Hammer for ages now. I used to make maps in Quake 3 engine and that was brilliant fun. If I have enough free time over the Easter holidays I'll try learning how to use it.

One (dim and distant) day I'd love to make a Southampton uni L4D map :D

A CTF map would be quite a difficult starting pointI dunno, it's what that page recommends.

Corridors should never be too narrow. At a minimum, make it so three people can stand next to each other.Well yeah, I was thinking the width of the 2fort sewers or that back route on Dustbowl 3.

(which leads to the question: rotational or mirror symmetry)Rotational, so that everything is always in the same place relative to you, regardless of the side you're on. I imagine mirror symmetry would be pretty damn confusing.

Anyway, I've had a quick fiddle based on the advice:

32334

Now the corridors don't run the length of the map, and connect to the central area for a bit less linearity. This is all kind of on a "basement level", as it were: maybe the dotty lines could be the floor of a canyon, with bridges going across on ground level. I dunno. And there'd be stairs up from the intel room to the main base (where respawn and stuff occurs)

Rotational it is then. Just make sure that any connections between the sides line up - that could be a bit tricky.

Height changes are important to gameplay and aesthetics. Without them, a map feels, plays and looks dull.

Just a thought, when it comes to rotating the map, I'm not sure how the editor will handle the rotation of entities. Entities are things that do something - be it a door, spawn point, camera view, item spawn or indeed... just about anything. Radiant didn't do it brilliantly.
I'm pretty sure the Source engine still has that split in the map files (worldspawn and entities), it uses bsp files so it would make sense.

For a CTF map, make it a 3x3x3 or 3x3x2 grid (x/y/z).
That is, sewers at the bottom and walkways at the top with normal ground in the middle.
Leave out the walkway in the center and make an arena like area with some obstacles for cover, so it isn't a sniper fest.

There should be staircases, ladders or something like that one each node, so you can quickly switch the levels.
Perhaps make some of these connections one way, i.e. a hole down.

Maybe some of the connection could lead from the bottom to the top layer, omitting the middle layer.

In the center on each end of the map there should be a big building with some additional entrances and connections between the layers.

For a CTF map, make it a 3x3x3 or 3x3x2 grid (x/y/z).
That is, sewers at the bottom and walkways at the top with normal ground in the middle.Nice way of putting it. So for example, if we used my idea then the four bits of tunnel/corridor would be in the four bottom-layer corners, and the intel room on the bottom-sides.

Leave out the walkway in the center and make an arena like area with some obstacles for cover, so it isn't a sniper fest.Agreed, central cover is very important.

There should be staircases, ladders or something like that one each node, so you can quickly switch the levels.
Perhaps make some of these connections one way, i.e. a hole down.

Maybe some of the connection could lead from the bottom to the top layer, omitting the middle layer.

Ladders are generally deprecated in TF2 compared with stairs on grounds of intuition. Holes down are a nice idea (for example, there's a hole directly into the intel room on Turbine)


In the center on each end of the map there should be a big building with some additional entrances and connections between the layers.Pretty much, yes.

I used to play around with hammer making maps for CS:S. I was working on one that featured two floating islands connected by a bridge and floating debris underneath it, with small underground caves inside each island Also had windmills on top. I was kind of inspired by the floating island in the video for Feel Good Inc... :p

I tried getting back into making maps for CS:S and possibly TF2 when I bought my iMac, but I can't run Hammer. It crashes way too often and has a myriad of rendering issues. Tried re-installing it but still didn't work. Gave up.

32334

thanks for the turbine

I'd like to see a more organic level, canyons and stuff. But with the bunker like bases at each end.

I'm not saying this is what I want the layout to be, I just wanted to suggest something more... swooshy.
The pillars in the middle are for scouts to jump around on. Perhaps snipers want to stand on the ledges where the arrows run under.

I'd like to see a more organic level, canyons and stuff. But with the bunker like bases at each end.

Square corridors are so much easier. :p

Square corridors are so much easier. :p

Yeah I know.. making an outdoor level would be hell. =(

Yeah I know.. making an outdoor level would be hell. =(well, let's compromise. do paul's idea. say it's a canyon map. the middle of the level is the actual canyon, and then we have a mining cave system dug into said canyon's walls leading back into the bases.

the canyon would be open and a pain in the ass to make, but it'd be the only area like that and would be fairly open. the rest would be mine shafts, so they'd be straight and narrow, each leading to an underground building of sorts that houses the flag and respawn points.

I came up with an idea combining the 2 designs we have so far. the green is the first floor, pink the second floor. the canyon floor is widely open and sniper-friendly but with plenty of obstacles that should be workable. the circles would be pillars on the canyon floor, making a route accessible easily for scouts and less easily for other classes. the extra circles would provide cover and break up the middle ground so it isn't a giant kill-zone, possibly providing alternate paths for tricky scouts. bridge over the middle to provide a fast but extremely dangerous route to each flag that's easy to get to but easier to defend, placed above the rest of the level for SOME cover, but fairly skinny so that no matter what a standing player is visible from the ground.

Yeah, that's better. Having just one organic area to worry about is probably enough.

How about a creek or river running across the middle? The map could slope downwards towards the water. And then the possible swimming routes back to the bases. It adds more options without making the map too confusing.

Edit 2: Perhaps I'm turning this into 2forts with the addition of water passages. :p

Good stuff so far, gents.

You may wish to look at map design from another angle. For example, try picturing the kind of map you'd like to play in. You could spend a lot of time making things balanced or unbalanced, but if you take a scientific approach from scratch you could limit your creativity. Instead, you could come up with a nice concept style map and look at tweaking it later. You don't have to design around the ability of classes all of the time, as you want to reinforce those team dependencies at some stage.

I liked Unreal Tournament's maps. Epic always seemed to pull it off nicely. I once made a map of my house for UT! Though as you can imagine it was far too small. I spent a lot of time getting the angles and scale right, but I mistakenly used a texture from a non-default texture pack one day, then UnrealEd wouldn't allow me to open the map anymore because it couldn't find the file. It eventually got lost.

Good stuff so far, gents.

You may wish to look at map design from another angle. For example, try picturing the kind of map you'd like to play in. You could spend a lot of time making things balanced or unbalanced, but if you take a scientific approach from scratch you could limit your creativity. Instead, you could come up with a nice concept style map and look at tweaking it later. You don't have to design around the ability of classes all of the time, as you want to reinforce those team dependencies at some stage.

I liked Unreal Tournament's maps. Epic always seemed to pull it off nicely.

Go easy on the creativity - I don't think we have any skilled map creators in our midsts.

Personal interest is one of the best ways to drive learning. I'm trying to hook in to that where possible. It's good to have ambition.

Just don't get overabitious. It's better to start with something simple but good and get it finished, than it is to start to complicated and get overwhelmed.

Just don't get overabitious. It's better to start with something simple but good and get it finished, than it is to start to complicated and get overwhelmed.

At the size of the map we have sketched out I'd hardly call it overambitious.
It's not like we are trying to make one of valves huge three-part maps. This map is quite small and confined.

As long as we work in iterations we should be fine, the first couple of versions don't need to look good. Let's just get a rough playable map first and then keep improving on it. If it's playable from the start then the map will be finished when nobody wants to keep working on it.

I really like some of the ideas going around, although I also worry that it'll be a lot like 2fort in terms of basic design. :p (middle in the open with water and bridge, extra paths through water and bridge, underground intel base thing, etc.)

As for size, I'd imagine it might be +/- 2fort, probably a bit bigger becaise the open area, but not too much or it gets tiring carrying the intel.

One-way paths are an original idea, but hard to merge into the game without confusing new players and looking out of place. With the latest design, I picture maybe we could have each "base" have a watermill near the river, so it'd stay hidden for new players, but clever ones could get through the watermill (one-way) into a "secret" path into the base. It also gives some life to the map by making it more than "two teams set up bases next to a river because". Another idea would be to have a "water current" (dunno how viable this is to implement) into the base that pushes players in one direction.

The bridge could be used for fast classes for a more direct approach at the expense of being much more open to enemy fire. Maybe have it slightly deteriorated to encourage careful movement instead of just gunning through, and keep players on their toes. (this also encourages defenders to try and push attackers off, instead of focusing on kills). Falling off would obviously bring you back to ground level.

Ground level would be suitable for slower classes, being easier to walk through than the bridge, at the expense of being the main open area of attack. I don't think it should dip towards the river though, as that'd make it harder for slower classes and make them easy prey for anyone up top, plus it's usually harder to fight in water, specially for pyros. I'm not sure how the open area should be designed to keep it from becoming a spam-fest though. The bridge could provide cover from snipers if designed respectively.

The river should obviously be deep enough to douse out any pyro fire, but not too deep to difficult movement in the ground area. Plus players on the bridge set on fire have to make the decision of "pulling through" or jumping down to douse the fire, again encouraging careful play up top.

There's also still the matter of desigining the actual bases. Where should spawn and intel points be? Connections between the various levels? Spots for snipers, sentries, stickies, etc? The paths to the intel have to be done carefully so they're varied, simple (no big confusing underground mazes) and not overly long. Like in 2fort and turbine, the key is that they're simple and easy to defend, but dangerous to leave unchecked.

I might try to sketch this all out properly eventually. I really like the ideas that keep floating around, it might make for a very fun map. Keep up the creativity!

if we run into the problem of being too similar to other maps, we could try making the middle have enough space to maneuver on the bridge and rock pillars that you could have decent fights up on the second floor like that, leaving the bottom more protected but more pyro-friendly.

also, the spawn and base entrances stuff was somewhat outlined in my map. the spawn could be the squared off section on the side of either base and the entrances are already marked by the gradienting pink/green lines meant to represent stairways.

It's CTF, the basic format is almost always the same. You shouldn't need to worry about it being too much like other maps.
A common feature of good CTF maps is a large central area that all routes pass through. I note that some of the proposed ideas have routes that do not go through a large central area - that's unusual and could be a defining feature, but it's also risky.

I think I have a good idea of what this could look like.

I note that some of the proposed ideas have routes that do not go through a large central area - that's unusual and could be a defining feature, but it's also risky
Not as risky as in other games with the engineer's sentry gun.

I note that some of the proposed ideas have routes that do not go through a large central area - that's unusual

it also sucks. nobody likes spamming through a bunch of tunnels

it also sucks. nobody likes spamming through a bunch of tunnels

Hence why it's a risky thing to do - it rarely works out well.

Here's a rough sketch I did of a possible map idea. The central thing is meant to be a raised walkway. The intel would be kept upstairs.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3968/roughsketch.jpg

Yes I realise it's a pretty crappy sketch, but the central area would look kinda like this:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2471/map1w.jpg

SupSuper came up with a pretty neat idea where there would be a kinda sewer running beneath the walkway, so you could extinguish flames and whatever. So the central thing is a little bit like this (with water underneath maybe):

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8320/map3a.jpg

And here's a really quick idea for the intel room, with 3 ways of escape. Maybe there could be a corridor running directly underneath the way to the sniper balcony on my rough plan, so once you grab the intel you could drop down into it and escape.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3441/map4o.jpg

Anyway just ideas for now! ;)

not a bad idea at all.

edit: would the green bits of your drawing be the continuation of the sewer or whatever, spilling into/under the tunnel going to the flag?

Here's my terrible sketches of the river idea:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/tf2river.png

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/tf2river2.png

So you'd have the river under the passage ways to flesh it out more and make the map not look so indoorsy, as well as providing flame dousing and maybe some sneaky underground passageways. The middle could also have an open top ala 2fort to make it more lively. So basically:

Ground floor: river and kinda-underground-passages
Middle floor: middle passage ways connecting stuff and providing zaniness
Top floor: intel and more stuff inside the team buildings

I realize this isn't as creative as the previous outdoor underground thing but it's probably a lot more plausible, and keeps the core features.

edit: would the green bits of your drawing be the continuation of the sewer or whatever, spilling into/under the tunnel going to the flag?
The green bits are my fail sketchy-ness in action :p They're meant to be those raised walkways in the "3D" sketch i did :cool:

Well those sketches are quite interesting. I quite like what Splapp posted.

the main problem i foresee with that central area is that it's ridiculously sniper-friendly. it'll be like 2fort where you have a sniper or two in those windows on either side, rarely dying because of how inaccessible their posts are to the enemy. if i'm seeing it correctly, you can't get up to that point without walking through their entire base, which is difficult for spies and impossible for everyone else

He's right. Move the staircases at the corners towards the centre a bit and add a walkway connecting the upper platforms to that window.

And that design still seems very flat. Bigger or more height changes necessary I think.

Snipers are always tricky to get to in any map, and we haven't come up with a detailed design of each base anyways. Depending on the overall height, classes like scouts, demomen and soldiers could probably get in there from outside.

The full thing would probably have a lot more obstacles for cover in the center. Or slower classes could stick to the ground floor with the pathways for cover, while faster dodgier classes can use the fairly exposed pathways.

Ok so here's what's been going around behind the scenes. (mostly between me and Splapp)

Base design:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/tf2_oh_gawd2.png

3D design:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/th_hammered.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/hammered.jpg)

Ingame outside:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/th_ctf_sewer_dave0000.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0000.jpg)

Ingame inside (no ceiling yet):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/th_ctf_sewer_dave0002.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0002.jpg)

Just to show you stuff has been done. Currently the concerns are whether the bases aren't too easy to sentry and if it's all big/small enough, scale-wise.

Woo, something has happened!

Looks a bit cramped. I can't tell how much you are sticking to the previous sketches, but it looks more like the Egypt map so far.

You've got too much detail in too little space.
Try to generalise and simplify the basic architecture first.

Also, in this image: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/ctf_sewer_dave0000.jpg - make the slope in the corner much shallower and wider. Widen the gap and possible bridge it to that seperate ledge.

It may work out well as a skybox too.

Could we test it out, Dan?

Woo, something has happened!

Looks a bit cramped. I can't tell how much you are sticking to the previous sketches, but it looks more like the Egypt map so far.Well it's only made out of cubes and one texture, so it easily looks cramped. I'm sticking to the layout though, with the middle being just a river and bridges between bases, with a few boxes for cover.

The bases just have three levels. Top-left is a sniper lookout, middle-right connects with the outer bridges, bottom-right is the ground. All these are inter-connected inside through a few ramps. There's also the river running under all this for sneakiness.

You might get a better feel trying it out.

You've got too much detail in too little space.
Try to generalise and simplify the basic architecture first.

Also, in this image: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/ctf_sewer_dave0000.jpg - make the slope in the corner much shallower and wider. Widen the gap and possible bridge it to that seperate ledge.

It may work out well as a skybox too.Well there's no measurements to go on so I try to follow what I know about ctf_2fort / ctf_turbine.

The middle slopes are as high as the ctf_turbine slopes, though they could probably be wider. Maybe the whole map should be wider, but I don't want intel trips getting too long. Height is pretty good though, you can rocket/sticky jump to a lot of places, and double jump to a few others.

Could we test it out, Dan?Sure: http://supsuper.wurmz.net/stuff/ctf_sewer_dave.zip

There's no entities or anything yet, just half a map with no indoor lightning yet.

I can host a little server with it if any of you wanna do any more extensive testing, though it's probably a bit early for that.

Well there's no measurements to go on so I try to follow what I know about ctf_2fort / ctf_turbine.

The middle slopes are as high as the ctf_turbine slopes, though they could probably be wider. Maybe the whole map should be wider, but I don't want intel trips getting too long. Height is pretty good though, you can rocket/sticky jump to a lot of places, and double jump to a few others.

Yeah, it's hard to judge things well in map editors. I hold the opinion that a lot of 2fort feels cramped though, so I would recommend using turbine as a comparison.

I'll have a look at that map, once I find where the hell the TF2 files are on my computer.


Edit: Looked at the map

Ok, here goes:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4931/ctfsewerdave0000.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4931/ctfsewerdave0000.jpg)
That slope there, is the steepest slope I think you should have (or at least, not much more than that). Otherwise it's just too awkward and feels wrong - it looks forced and unnatural.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7417/ctfsewerdave0001l.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7417/ctfsewerdave0001l.jpg)
That slope (goes up to a sniper ledge) is definitly too steep, especially for it's length. It looks like it's gradiant is more than 1 (45 degrees).

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/482/ctfsewerdave0003.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/482/ctfsewerdave0003.jpg)
With those slopes, you might get away with it, they're still too steep in my view. Make the base longer would probably cramp the map, so I would suggest lowering the raised platform down a bit (though probably not by much).
I don't think you need to make that courtyard bigger.
Lowering that raised bit though, will have some implications. Currently, falling from it deals 10-15 damage as far as I can tell.

With getting the angle of slopes right, just look at it and think: would I want to climb it, or would I even be able to easily climb it.

I think you've got a good thing going with the layout of rooms and corridors. You might want to check out the situations that can occur with the Sentry Gun though.

I think some of the steeper ones are meant to be staircases... i'm not sure though. They need some texture or something :p

I think some of the steeper ones are meant to be staircases... i'm not sure though. They need some texture or something :p
yes, but even staircases shouldn't be that steep. i mean, take a look at the staircases in turbine - those are like a 25 degree angle at most.

Yeah the reason some slopes are so steep is to not block off most of the map. I'm gonna try making the map wider so there's enough space for slopes, and make the outside ones open underneath (like turbine).

I'm willing to help out if necessary during the Easter holidays. Though it does mean I'll have to work out a new map editor.

Ok new middle to tackle everyone's concerns:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/th_ctf_sewer_dave0006.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0006.jpg)

To sum it up:
- The middle is now slightly longer and shorter. this puts it in line with ctf middles
- Platform edge ramps have been stretched to reduce slopiness
- Middle bridge has been lowered (platforms haven't though) and respective ramps tweaked to reduce slopiness
- Bridge ramps slightly wider
- Sniper spot slightly lower
- Crates tweaked to allow scouts to double-jump from side-to-side

I'll work on the base(s) next.

Looking at that screenshot, that's a much better layout.


I think some of the steeper ones are meant to be staircases... i'm not sure though. They need some texture or something :p

I'd recommend against staircases. They generally don't look as good.
But if you do put them in, be sure to layer a clip brush over them, turning them into a ramp.

I'm willing to help out if necessary during the Easter holidays. Though it does mean I'll have to work out a new map editor.Hammer is surprisingly easy to use, plus there's a lot of documentation (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Category:Level_Design) for it.

I imagine I'll need a lot of help once we actually move on to fleshing out the map and making it look pretty. Speaking of which, can any creative minds think of a look/environment that'd fit the current design? You know, give the map some meaning.

I'd recommend against staircases. They generally don't look as good.
But if you do put them in, be sure to layer a clip brush over them, turning them into a ramp.They're also a pain to make for something that ends up working like a ramp. :p
You should see Valve maps, they put clip brushes over anything that isn't perfectly straight. (and even then)

Hammer is surprisingly easy to use, plus there's a lot of documentation (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Category:Level_Design) for it.

I imagine I'll need a lot of help once we actually move on to fleshing out the map and making it look pretty. Speaking of which, can any creative minds think of a look/environment that'd fit the current design? You know, give the map some meaning.

They're also a pain to make for something that ends up working like a ramp. :p
You should see Valve maps, they put clip brushes over anything that isn't perfectly straight. (and even then)


Given the layout of the map, I'm thinking of a style similar to turbine, though mabye less plain.

Putting clip brushes over any un-smooth surface is important. You'll find that if you don't, particularly with stairs, the player camera can become very jerky.
It also prevents annoying things occuring with explosives.

Given the layout of the map, I'm thinking of a style similar to turbine, though mabye less plain.Yeah I don't like how plain turbine's look is. I was hoping for something more 2forty, not in terms of complexity but look, with distinct RED and BLU bases and... something on the open middle. What something would justify a "river" going through both bases and a bunch of platforms over it though. :p

Well I suggested Turbine because that sort of style is so much easier than 2fort's. I prefer it aesthetically too.
The distinct differences between Red and Blue from 2fort would be a bit of nightmare too.

Ok I've made the base slightly longer to match other CTF maps, connected the middle path to the back and tweaked the rest respectively. This should take care of any chokepoints.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/th_ctf_sewer_dave0007.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0007.jpg)

If there aren't any more objections, I'm gonna start making the map playable so we can have test sessions to find out if this is a piece of crap or not. :p

Map available here: http://supsuper.wurmz.net/stuff/ctf_sewer_dave.zip

nicely designed! open and yet closed. interesting layout.

You realize the final base will have a ceiling, I just removed it so it's easier to show the layout.

You realize the final base will have a ceiling, I just removed it so it's easier to show the layout.obviously :p I meant the way the innards are laid out.

You realize the final base will have a ceiling, I just removed it so it's easier to show the layout.

Map ruined. :(

Well gentlemen, this is it. The moment you've all been waiting for. The map now has 50% less eye-burning and 50% more ceilings! (sorry Grim)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0009.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0010.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave0011.jpg

Now it's the time to test. Test until your eyes bleed. Test until you forever hate the color orange. Find every single thing wrong about the design until the map you once knew is no more. Once that's done, we can go about fleshing out the map's appearence.

Obviously while people can test this individually, it's much better if we test this all together. So how about a playtesting session, say around Saturday 7pm GMT?

If anyone wants to try it, my computer will be hosting the map Tuesday-Wednesday and Friday-Saturday-Sunday. (and whenever else is needed) Ping should be ok for anyone in Europe, except around morning when it's downloading time.
Please don't use it for grinding. :p

Name: Sup Server (steam://connect/217.129.40.146:27025)
IP Address: 217.129.40.146:27025
Password: cheese

I have no idea how fast the map downloads, so if you want you can get the map ahead of time here (http://supsuper.wurmz.net/stuff/ctf_sewer_dave.zip), just extract it to your "Steam\<username>\steamapps\team fortress 2\tf\maps" folder.

If you get a message like "3rd party mod not installed" when connecting, try clicking the link from within TF2. (eg. start TF2, get someone through Steam to give you the link or give it to yourself, click it)

I'm also gonna try and arrange a playtest session with my clan, I'll let you know how it goes.


Edit: Fixed buggy spawn doors, added spectator cameras, added pickups.

Sexual. I'll be there.

I'll try to be there. I'm not sure if I can on that schedule. Plus I'm in Mexico so ping will be massive. I'll still try.

Obviously while people can test this individually, it's much better if we test this all together. So how about a playtesting session, say around Saturday 7pm GMT?

remind me on msn and i'll be there

Damn it, 7pm. That is 7am here, at which point I am asleep. :(

EDIT: I had a brief jog around the map, here are a few first impressions...

1: The map, as you probably know, is quite Demoman friendly (And Soldier to a slightly lesser extent). Of course, it is hard for this to NOT happen with Demomen. :p
2: Somewhat related, is the Demoman supposed to be able to get up that water shaft into the Intelligence room? Of course, a Sentry will stop him dead in his tracks, but it is certainly interesting.
3: I am not sure about putting ammo on one side of the water passage and health on the other. It seems to me this gives Red an unfair advantage when attempting to escape with the Intelligence.
4: The layout feels a little too basic and straight for me (Possibly as a result of this, it also feels somewhat small, though that is not necessarily a bad thing). Maybe that is what you were aiming for, but it just seems too clear-cut, as it were.
5: More related to cosmetics, but the water tunnel is rather dark, and I found myself spinning everywhere trying to find the way out. Maybe that is intentional, of course. >.>
6: I could not see any good spots for Teleporters. :( I am intrigued to see how powerful Engineers will be though.

As I said, these are just first impressions, and I would have to play it longer and have actual games with people to get a proper feel for it. Just a few thoughts that came to me though.

EDIT TWO: I forgot to mention. Take a left from the Intelligence room, then right down the ramp to the wall with the 100 ammo and health pack. Look up and enjoy your view of the sky. :p

6: I could not see any good spots for Teleporters. :( I am intrigued to see how powerful Engineers will be though.I thought maybe under the enemy's side ramp, simply because it's a way across the snipery snipery middle.

Haven't tested it yet, but from what I see in those screenshots, there definitely needs to be a lot of interior and obstacles, otherwise those corridors will be a pain in the áss to pass through, because snipers and soldiers can hit you from far away.
I suppose though that such things will be added later.

I'll try to make it on Saturday.

Ok some clan members of mine should join us, so we should have enough people to do some good testing.

Damn it, 7pm. That is 7am here, at which point I am asleep. :(Well I'll leave the server running, you and all the other different-time-zoners can arrange your own playtest session, although you might not get a good ping. Maybe one of you host it.

EDIT: I had a brief jog around the map, here are a few first impressions...

1: The map, as you probably know, is quite Demoman friendly (And Soldier to a slightly lesser extent). Of course, it is hard for this to NOT happen with Demomen. :pWell I'm not a very good Demoman, though I imagine all the tight hallways might make for easy sticking. The question is whether there's alternate routes or not, much like putting sentries on them. Demomen gotta have their uses. :p

2: Somewhat related, is the Demoman supposed to be able to get up that water shaft into the Intelligence room? Of course, a Sentry will stop him dead in his tracks, but it is certainly interesting.Can't say I ever managed it. I could make the descent a bit zig-zaggy, but now I'm wondering if it's a bug or a feature. Thoughts anyone?

3: I am not sure about putting ammo on one side of the water passage and health on the other. It seems to me this gives Red an unfair advantage when attempting to escape with the Intelligence.I've removed them now. At first I figured I'd give a sneaky incentive for people to drop underwater, but I think there's enough reasons to go underwater and enough pickups on the middle as it is.

4: The layout feels a little too basic and straight for me (Possibly as a result of this, it also feels somewhat small, though that is not necessarily a bad thing). Maybe that is what you were aiming for, but it just seems too clear-cut, as it were.Well clear-cut is easier to work with at first. Also I'm not very creative, if you guys wanna come up with ideas to flesh it out, be my guest. I might just put blocks as model placeholders to provide some obstacleness.

5: More related to cosmetics, but the water tunnel is rather dark, and I found myself spinning everywhere trying to find the way out. Maybe that is intentional, of course. >.>Well I couldn't come up with a reasonable reason for lights to exist in an underwater tunnel. I might add some regardless, maybe some arrows too.

6: I could not see any good spots for Teleporters. :( I am intrigued to see how powerful Engineers will be though.What do you think would make good spots for Teleporters?

EDIT TWO: I forgot to mention. Take a left from the Intelligence room, then right down the ramp to the wall with the 100 ammo and health pack. Look up and enjoy your view of the sky. :pWhoops, fixed.

Well I couldn't come up with a reasonable reason for lights to exist in an underwater tunnel.

Two words, one digit:

Team Fortress 2

Can't say I ever managed it. I could make the descent a bit zig-zaggy, but now I'm wondering if it's a bug or a feature. Thoughts anyone?

Personally I like it. (Though I rarely play Demoman myself.)

What do you think would make good spots for Teleporters?

Just sort of little nooks and crannies, or around corners players will not look at all the time. Like in 2fort for example, building Teleporters in the sewers or just up the stairs in the enemy base can be interesting, and they can stay alive for a little while.

It is not really a problem per se, I just like Teleporters. :p (And maybe there are one or two places.)

Two words, one digit:

Team Fortress 2

2words1digit

...

Why do I do these things to myself. :(

Well I couldn't come up with a reasonable reason for lights to exist in an underwater tunnel. I might add some regardless, maybe some arrows too.

You should never have absolute darkness in a map. Even if you don't add visible light sources, add ambient light to the map (if it's possible, it might still be a variable in the worldspawn entity).
Then make sure everything is well lit.

I think an exit from the water tunnel should be added on each side.
The water way can't really be used for infiltration at the moment.

I think an exit from the water tunnel should be added on each side.
The water way can't really be used for infiltration at the moment.Agreed, right now the tunnel's not doing much more than "extra way out/fire extinguisher/slightly awkward obstacle if you aren't using the bridge". Not sure how to connect it up without just simply joining it with the downstairs entrance, which isn't really much in the way of an extra.

Unless...

You join it up with that there, but also get rid of the downstairs entrance, forcing you to use the sewers more if you want to attack from below.

Although that makes it a little less intuitive, and reduces the importance of those crates as cover. I dunno. But here's a quick modification to show what I mean:

32428

Although again, as I say you could still leave that doorway in. But then, why ever use the sewer entrance if that's the case?

Agreed, right now the tunnel's not doing much more than "extra way out/fire extinguisher/slightly awkward obstacle if you aren't using the bridge". Not sure how to connect it up without just simply joining it with the downstairs entrance, which isn't really much in the way of an extra.

Unless...

You join it up with that there, but also get rid of the downstairs entrance, forcing you to use the sewers more if you want to attack from below.

Although that makes it a little less intuitive, and reduces the importance of those crates as cover. I dunno. But here's a quick modification to show what I mean:

32428

Although again, as I say you could still leave that doorway in. But then, why ever use the sewer entrance if that's the case?The only problem with this is it instantly provdes a very quick two-way route to the intel since players can just nab it, drop down into the water and swim back to the safety to their base unnoticed. Keep in mind the water route is much shorter and closed than, say, 2fort's sewers. I have considered expanding the lower floor though, but it's something that requires serious pondering.

Anyways, I've done the last update to the map before the playtest, so anyone that wants to save themselves some downloading time can grab it now. Changes are:
- Water route now has soft lights and arrow signs on the edges.
- Moved some in-base slopes.
- Shrunk the outer openings of the bases so as to reduce the FOV of players firing inside-outside and forcing them to expose themselves more (specially snipers).

I'll notify anyone I remember on MSN/Steam beforehand.

READ THIS:
To prevent people bringing up the same problems over and over, here's a quick guide for getting into my server as simply and smoothly as possible:
1. Grab the map ahead of time (http://supsuper.wurmz.net/stuff/ctf_sewer_dave.zip) and put it in your maps/ folder. (extract the ZIP, naturally)
2. Start Team Fortress 2.
3. Wait for me to join the server.
4. When I do, follow me through Steam by going to Friends > Arrow next to my name > View Game Info > Join Game (Join Game in the popup menu might be disabled)

That's it. The server is the version you can grab off Steam which is kinda crap, so joining any other way tends to not work, but if you're just patient and follow my method it should work. Getting errors like "3rd party mod not installed" means you didn't do it right. Also don't expect anything fancy. There are no plugins, no special configs, no nothing. If I ever have to fiddle with the server I have to alt-tab and access the server console (not the TF2 console) directly, and hopefully my computer can cope with you guys.

As for testing the map, just play a game like always. Big problems stand out much faster during regular play then if you go out of your way to try and come up with possible exploits. I mean sure, test and try every possible thing you can imagine, sure, but don't let a very remote hard-to-reproduce exploit distract you from more obvious things, like if the map is actually fun and playable. You can always test it yourself alone to confirm your concerns.

When you do find a problem with the map, take note of it and take screenshots (if necessary) and post it so we can discuss it. Chatting about them ingame makes it hard to discuss and investigate in the middle of playing and there's no chatlogs. Being constructive about it and suggesting how to fix problems instead of just going "UGH SNIPERS *** FIX IT" is always welcome.

In the end of all this serious business, just have fun and enjoy yourself. :) Remember that it won't be just you guys in there, so try to keep it civil and friendly. If things get out of hand I'll just kill the server and be done with it. Don't worry too much about coming late, even if I'm not around I should leave the server running for the day.

Really good map. :D Awesome fun!

A lot of fun, but some important conclusions:

1. Scout is too powerful here. While it's fun to have scout-friendly maps, this is probably a bit too scout-friendly. The simplest way to slow down the scouts is suggested in point 2.

2. Escaping with the intel is too easy, especially via the sniper deck. The main suggestion here is to make the bases longer, and have the intel further away from the sniper deck, and make the path to the sniper deck twisty as well.

3. A bit more cover against snipers needed.

Other than that, it's a success.

Ok, here we go:

The most significant criticism I can make, is how quickly the centre courtyard is reached from the intel room. It's a short, straight corridor. Not even turbine has that.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8971/ctfsewerdave0005.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8971/ctfsewerdave0005.jpg)
That image is taken from the intel room for those that havn't played the map yet.
The centre courtyard (just beyond where the blue intel dropped) can be seen from the intel room. That makes it too easy to escape the enemy base, leading scouts to dominate the game.


To illustrate my suggestion, I've drawn up a crude map of each base. There are some pathways missing (namely, the ones that go below to the bottom of the map, but they're less relevant).

This is the base as it currently stands:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5093/image1phg.th.png (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5093/image1phg.png)

My suggestion is to move the intel room back (to the left), so you can force in some bends between it and the centre courtyard. Leave everything else as it is. Don't move the spawn points either, so you're forced to add in some corners, breaking the line of sight between the intel and the spawn.

So something like:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4112/image2pje.th.png (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4112/image2pje.png)
Only less messy.

The corridors are all supposed to be roughly the same width, but I can't be bothered to make it to scale or anything.


Also, the pit in the intel room has little merit compared to the exit illustrated above. Perhaps by fixing the issue discussed here, you'll give reason to use that pit. And add a small barrier around it, so you can't accidently step into it. Like you've done for some of the walkways in the centre bit, but not as big.


On snipers: I'm not sure how they'll play here. The ledge provided for them is a bit scary to use, as it's very open and prone to attack from the ramp (which connects directly to the centre bit).
Whilst not as sniper friendly as some maps, it's certainly more sniper friendly than a lot of maps.

sorry for missing out on the playtest. i went with my friend to an improv show. be sure to let me know when the next one rolls around

stuff and things

I like that.

I only ran around a bit by myself, and I agree that it's too easy to get the intel and escape. The bases should be made deeper. The sniper balcony could be reduced to more of a slot that you can't fit through. Wouldn't that stop quick escaping with the intel?

I also thought you were able to swim back to your base, but instead you have to exit the water in the middle of the map. Seems safe..

Edit: Maybe something like this could be done with the middle section?
I think you need to make the whole map taller for this to work though, as you're supposed to be able to stand under the lower part of the ramps.

That's quite a lot going on in a small area, it looks crowded.

Yeah, abig problem is that the scout can simply jump down the hole and swim pretty quickly to the middle ground. By the time people react to the fact he's jumped down the hole and made their way to the courtyard, he's probably gonna be 2/3rd's of the way to the base.

did anyone try setting up a sentry underwater right at the end of that shaft leading out of the intel room?

Someone did put a sentry in the water tunnels, but they seldom got used.

They did yeah. It became a problem if you fell in the water on the opponents half of the base. It was quite fun to try and destory it, but abit pointless. Maybe it would be worth having some sort of small, 2forts (ie: from the base to the intel room) esque corridors going down to the water.

Well by extending the main escape routes, mabye the tunnel will have more merit.
I would recommend keeping the water tunnels the same length as they are now though. If you move the intel room back, just slope the pit more so as to reach the tunnel (but make it steep enough so you can't climb up).

That's quite a lot going on in a small area, it looks crowded.

Well yes, you'd need to make that area a bit larger (mostly taller I think). You can also remove two of the four ramps for extra space, but it didn't look as good.

Thanks for everyone who joined the playtest, even if I had to drag you all from MSN. ;) I'd appreciate it if you let me know ahead of time if you were coming or not though.

Currently everyone seems to really like the map and find it fun, which is good, so I'm gonna try to not change the design too much. However, it also revealed some serious issues, so my current goal is: The bases need to be deeper and bendier. This should take care of the scout/sniper problems like so:

- Push intel room deeper, disconnect sniper ledge from intel, readjust base paths and respawns to make scout runs longer and trickier.
- Make sure there are bends after possible sniper spots (slopes aren't enough to keep them back) so they can't hide away in the base.
- Consider fleshing out lower level, connect to water if the path is distant enough (2fort sewers countered their "stealthiness" by being much longer than any other path), throw in some obstacles here and there where necessary.

Really good map. :D Awesome fun!

Thanks. :)

A lot of fun, but some important conclusions:

1. Scout is too powerful here. While it's fun to have scout-friendly maps, this is probably a bit too scout-friendly. The simplest way to slow down the scouts is suggested in point 2.

2. Escaping with the intel is too easy, especially via the sniper deck. The main suggestion here is to make the bases longer, and have the intel further away from the sniper deck, and make the path to the sniper deck twisty as well.

3. A bit more cover against snipers needed.

Other than that, it's a success.Noted.

Ok, here we go:

The most significant criticism I can make, is how quickly the centre courtyard is reached from the intel room. It's a short, straight corridor. Not even turbine has that.

image (http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8971/ctfsewerdave0005.jpg)
That image is taken from the intel room for those that havn't played the map yet.
The centre courtyard (just beyond where the blue intel dropped) can be seen from the intel room. That makes it too easy to escape the enemy base, leading scouts to dominate the game.


To illustrate my suggestion, I've drawn up a crude map of each base. There are some pathways missing (namely, the ones that go below to the bottom of the map, but they're less relevant).

This is the base as it currently stands:
image (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5093/image1phg.png)

My suggestion is to move the intel room back (to the left), so you can force in some bends between it and the centre courtyard. Leave everything else as it is. Don't move the spawn points either, so you're forced to add in some corners, breaking the line of sight between the intel and the spawn.

So something like:
image (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4112/image2pje.png)
Only less messy.

The corridors are all supposed to be roughly the same width, but I can't be bothered to make it to scale or anything.


Also, the pit in the intel room has little merit compared to the exit illustrated above. Perhaps by fixing the issue discussed here, you'll give reason to use that pit. And add a small barrier around it, so you can't accidently step into it. Like you've done for some of the walkways in the centre bit, but not as big.


On snipers: I'm not sure how they'll play here. The ledge provided for them is a bit scary to use, as it's very open and prone to attack from the ramp (which connects directly to the centre bit).
Whilst not as sniper friendly as some maps, it's certainly more sniper friendly than a lot of maps.Thanks for the suggestions, I've got my ideas as well that should improve bases somewhat. I'll probably time how long it takes from one intel to the other in ctf_turbine and ctf_2fort and use that as a basis.

One of my goals is to ensure snipers have a fair share of FOV but the best ledges are the more vulnerable, so it doesn't become like 2fort's balcony.

sorry for missing out on the playtest. i went with my friend to an improv show. be sure to let me know when the next one rolls aroundNo problem.

I only ran around a bit by myself, and I agree that it's too easy to get the intel and escape. The bases should be made deeper. The sniper balcony could be reduced to more of a slot that you can't fit through. Wouldn't that stop quick escaping with the intel?

I also thought you were able to swim back to your base, but instead you have to exit the water in the middle of the map. Seems safe..Reducing the sniper balcony that much would just make it harder to get snipers and reduce their FOVs all at once.

And the point of CTF maps is to not have a completely hidden two-way route to the intel and back. Plus it's fairly trivial to go from the middle to your base, with bridges and such for cover.

Edit: Maybe something like this could be done with the middle section?
I think you need to make the whole map taller for this to work though, as you're supposed to be able to stand under the lower part of the ramps.Is that a highway intersection? :p

I doubt all those ramps are necessary. Most people just take the shortest path through the middle by rocket/sticky/double-jumping and skipping as much as they can. Plus it'd be aggravating to get back up if you fell off.

Someone did put a sentry in the water tunnels, but they seldom got used.I did. It's funny to infinitely drown next to a dispenser though. :p

I think the balance of keep it open and twisty enough is going to the main challenge you might find with this map.
2Forts is probably the best example that you can have here. This map is just as fun as 2Forts, which is probably my favourite map (I love being a Sniper), so I look forward to this.

Omigosh you guys, it's CTF_SEWER_DAVE_B2! With everything you asked for!

- Color-coded bases for your convenience! (and mine)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave_b20003.jpg

- New intel room with better sentry spots and no more accidental drops in the water!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave_b20000.jpg

- Water-base connector for all your sneaking needs!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave_b20001.jpg

- Completely resdesigned base layout for more solidity and less exploitability!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/supsuper/TF2/Custom/ctf_sewer_dave_b20002.jpg

- 250% optimized! (now barely 2MB big!)

DOWNLOAD LINK (http://supsuper.wurmz.net/stuff/ctf_sewer_dave_b2.zip) (feel free to get rid of any old versions)

Feel free to grab it ahead of time and try it yourself.
I'm arranging a playtest with my clan since it'll be hosted on their servers this time around (since mine's terrible to set up) so it should go much smoother this time. I'll let you know when a date/time is decided.

looks pretty nice! good job!

The OD map. Get it up on PoE ASAP!

Yay, I'll have a little look around soon. (Given that I'll probably not be able to make whatever time you choose to playtest it on. :p)

I hope you can still get up that chute to the Intel room as a Demoman. :cool:

Ok so this is how it's gonna go down:

Server: Serious Fun Happy Server #2 {PoE} (steam://connect/89.238.152.202:27016)
Date: 24th July (Friday)
Time: 8pm GMT
Password: cheese

The map will probably run all night, but if you wanna find people to play with try to join near the marked time. Feel free to bring along friends and anyone else that might want to test out the map (Plasma is forbidden :p) and keep it civil.

Oh yay, I'll be in Sheffield at that time with no computer access (or the time for it).

Ah well, someone else will have to snipe for me.

Plasma's on my Steam list. Sorry, but there is no way to stop him, unless you ban him.

Plasma's on my Steam list. Sorry, but there is no way to stop him, unless you ban him.

Password .

Ok the server will be passworded with cheese, be sure to tell anyone you're bringing along.

Anybody playing today? I will not likely be at my computer tomorrow evening, being Friday and all.

ATTENTION: I have been informed by some very picky individuals that the concept of "GMT" is confusing, perhaps even befuddling. By this I mean the time that is currently in effect in UK/Portugal, including any summer time changes. Since everyone gets summer time changes more or less at the same time, this shouldn't be a issue, but if you're still deeply frightened and concerned about arriving late, you can check the UK Time on the bottom of this page here: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/
Hopefully that clears everything up. :p

Also PoE is planning to have an open custom map night afterwards, so feel free to leave or stick around (you can grab those maps here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/x3urx0)) after the maptest.

Eh? That site is wack. Don't beleive what it says! It tells me Sweden is in GMT+2, which is a lie, as we are GMT+1.

The easiest way to figure out what time it is in GMT, just remove the number of hours that your timezone ads to it.

Only if you don't mind arriving late, of course.

Eh? That site is wack. Don't beleive what it says! It tells me Sweden is in GMT+2, which is a lie, as we are GMT+1.Summer time:

Central European Standard Time = GMT+1
Central European Summer Time = GMT+2

:p

British Summer Time = GMT+1
GMT = GMT +/- 0

GMT/UTC never changes. How is this complicated?

Nothing has been mentioned of the play test yet (here). I don't know what you guys were saying over voip, so these will be just my opinions of the map so far.

In any case, I generally like the layout of the map, but there's something that doesn't feel right about it. So here are a few things that bugged me and might be the reason.

I think the map as a whole is too large, or the corridors are too long and wide. The whole map should be shrunk down uniformly by around 30%.
The outdoor area is huge, both forward and sideways. A sentry in the corner only guards that corned and the middle, too easy to take out from a distance. The big blocks are strange, not sure what to do about that.

I also want to destroy the symmetry going on in the corridors and rooms behind the outdoors area. Not that the bases look the same, I'm talking about the left-right symmetry within them. There are a few subtle differences, like you can only enter on the right side, and on the left there's the window. By the breifcase the only difference between left and right is the ledge. I'd like to see a more radical difference. In 2Fort you have an outdoor area on the right, sewer entrence/exit down on the left, and a tunnel up in the middle. I'm not saying to copy that layout, but be more inspired by it. :p

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2751/90001976.jpg
:There's also the part where the ramps from the water enter the base.
The ramp exits up right into a wall, and when you get up there you need to look out from attackers from three directions at once! It's too easily defended. So I would turn the ramp around so it faces one of the exits, and block access to the other two.

So... comments? I hope there will be more play tests.

British Summer Time = GMT+1

Many people forget that small, yet important fact.

British Summer Time = GMT+1
GMT = GMT +/- 0

GMT/UTC never changes. How is this complicated?

Well. It's confusing because I've always seen the 'GMT+1' as a constant for my timezone, like a label.

"GMT is in England, and we are one hour ahead, so of course we are always GMT+1."

I think the Windows clock is to blame in this case, as it says I live in GMT+1 all year around, and that's what the clock has said in all versions of Windows that I've used.

Well, Britain does change, so don't base your presumptions on us. I recommend stating UTC in future, Universally-Coordinated Time, as I don't believe it's associated with any country's time zone. Either that or Swatch Internet Time (http://www.swatch.com/zz_en/internettime.html) which seems oddly easier to grasp, as a concept of unchanging uniformity, perhaps because of its deviation from the normal recording of time.

I loved the map, even though I never played on it.

As worMatty said, GMT never changes.

Winter:
Britain: GMT
Most of Europe (Including Sweden): GMT+1

Summer:
Britain: BST (GMT+1)
Most of Europe (Including Sweden): GMT+2


I think Windows lists summer time as winter time "adjusted for daylight savings".

So Sweden is currently in "daylight savings adjusted GMT+1" - A.K.A GMT+2.