I think people are getting off lightly for discussing cracks/pirated games etc. For example, look at this thread, the last post by Lex:
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29523
I thought the policy was to ban anyone who obviously has an illegal copy of any Team17 game?

I think that anyone who discusses these things, their rank completely irrelivent, should be instantly perm-banned from the forum, until they somehow prove they have a legal copy.


Ded.

I really do think its really pointless to get the worms game illegally anyway. They are extremely cheap! So to all of you pirates out there, stop being such a penny pincher.

I think people are getting off lightly for discussing cracks/pirated games etc. For example, look at this thread, the last post by Lex:
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29523
I thought the policy was to ban anyone who obviously has an illegal copy of any Team17 game?

I think that anyone who discusses these things, their rank completely irrelivent, should be instantly perm-banned from the forum, until they somehow prove they have a legal copy.


Ded.
Well:
1: I don't think most people on this forum would be willing to give up the older forumers, such as Kelster; especially when we only know that forumer has an illegal game because they were being helpful.
2: There were countless posts made by people like Bonz that told people how to create a no-cd game if you have a cd.
3: You had just discussed 'these things' in that post. You're going to have to be more descriptive.

I'll have a look at that thread - thanks for bringing it to our attention :)

Next time, as soon as anyone sees a thread like that, please use the "Report Post" feature to instantly alert the mods/admins.


Edit:

And I definitely wouldn't call kelster an old forumer. AndrewTaylor is an old forumer. If your userid is 3 or less figures, you're an old forumer in my books :p

K^2 was considered an "old" forumer, but he got banned.


One other thing: we can't instantly ban people for talking about having a game without a CD - there is such a thing called "TryMedia". Come to think of it - they probably do deserve getting banned for using TryMedia software ;) :D

*runs*

2: There were countless posts made by people like Bonz that told people how to create a no-cd crack if you have a cd.At this point I'd like to point out there is a difference between a no-cd crack and emulating a CD.

Also, I remember back with APJ that my quite legitimate thread asking if it was posible to run WA without a CD becuase I (back then) couldn't get WINE to read the CD drive was instantly deleted.

Well:
1: I don't think most people on this forum would be willing to give up the older forumers, such as Kelster; especially when we only know that forumer has an illegal game because they were being helpful.

...she's not THAT old

At this point I'd like to point out there is a difference between a no-cd crack and emulating a CD.
I said crack? I meant game.
And in this context, the end result is the same.
Edit: Although, as Thomas pointed out...

...she's not THAT old
Ya, I couldn't think of a better word for it.


Edit: Speaking of which, where are the forum rules?

Edit: Speaking of which, where are the forum rules?

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I said crack? I meant game.
And in this context, the end result is the same.Oh right, well the end result's the same but they're derived from two rather different means.

Edit: Speaking of which, where are the forum rules?

If they're formally written down anywhere, I've not seen them.

AndrewTaylor is an old forumer.

Steady on.

Two of them were clearly using the Core packed files, while I sympathise with anyone stupid enough to break a CD and not have a backup... I don't sympathise with those stupid enough to replace it with a Core release.

And those who download it without having either WA or WWP legally.... urgh.

The only reason why I downloaded it was because my dumb town doesn't carry anything of worms. And I've had that downloaded thing since like grade 5.
And I'm not old.

The only reason why I downloaded it was because my dumb town doesn't carry anything of worms. And I've had that downloaded thing since like grade 5.
And I'm not old.
neither dose my town, so thats the beauty of the team 17 shop ;)

The only reason why I downloaded it was because my dumb town doesn't carry anything of worms. And I've had that downloaded thing since like grade 5.

Poor excuses. You still remain a pirate.

The only reason why I downloaded it was because my dumb town doesn't carry anything of worms. And I've had that downloaded thing since like grade 5.
And I'm not old.
So you felt that because your town didn't sell a game (and there were many other options to buy it, via t'internet for example) you should deprive Team17 of much needed beer money?

Games publishers get little money from games sales as it is - they shouldn't be deprived of any more. What you've done is to STEAL the game from Team17 - therefore you are a thief. Harsh, isn't it? And, thiefs are criminals, criminals who get caught get punished.

So you felt that because your town didn't sell a game (and there were many other options to buy it, via t'internet for example) you should deprive Team17 of much needed beer money?

Well to be fair, if her town doesn't sell it, maybe she can't buy it. In which case T17 are still deprived of said money.

Maybe she can't order online because she doesn't have a credit card.

Well to be fair, if his town doesn't sell it, maybe he can't buy it. In which case T17 are still deprived of said money.

Maybe he can't order online because he doesn't have a credit card.Her parents could buy it online and then she could pay them back.

A pirated copy is still a pirated copy no matter how much you try to dress it up.

Ya, I couldn't think of a better word for it.The word you're looking for is "no-way-is-my-gf-getting-banned-on-my-watch". Yes, that's a word. :p

To add to the pointless discussion, worse than a pirated copy is a RIPPED pirate copy which has no original CD thus won't work online, can't be patched easily and probably has half the stuff ripped or re-compressed in three thousand new ways, so you're reallyl better off with the original.

Her parents could buy it online and then she could pay them back.

And what if they don't let her? Let me guess: "tough"

It seems there are two problems:

a) she doesn't have WA
b) T17 haven't profited from her

If my speculation is true, then only one of those problems can be solved. Better than solving neither of them though, right?

Yes it is still a pirated copy, yes it is still illegal, but it's hard to have a go at anyone for being morally obtuse if their only option is a victimless crime.

But it's not victimless - Team17 lose precious beer money :D

And what if they don't let her? Let me guess: "tough"

Well... yes.

By pirating, she steals a game. T17 lose potential money.

And if she can't get the game? T17 still lose potential money.

So it doesn't make a difference to T17.

Well, Worms isn't anywhere in my town either, when I bought it 1 and a half years ago. So I bought it used from Amazon.com, mainly because my parents don't trust other sites. I'm older than Kelster, but still. I feel kinda bad for doing that, though, because T17 didn't make any money off me directly because I bought it used. But I wouldn't pirate a T17 game. I mean, I do a lot of emulation and stuff, but I wouldn't go so far to pirate a game made by one of my favorite companies.

I think a ban is a bit too harsh. Maybe "being watched" or something at most. I mean, it sucks that K^2 got banned.

I'm sure Team17 would rather lose money through someone being unable to buy a copy of the game than lose money through piracy.


Edit:

In my opinion, I'd rather see someone Watched for discussing hacking a game (watched for the first offence). Then, if they post again, they get banned.

Remember that K^2 was warned a number of times and told to stop - he chose not to.

I'm sure Team17 would rather lose money through someone being unable to buy a copy of the game than lose money through piracy.
But the thing is, they wouldn't have gained any money at the end of it

I think all discussion regarding theese subjects should get you perm-banned:

Caffeine.
Anything negative against the EU.
The acknowledgement of the excistance of Asia.
All non-Sony gaming consoles.
Beer.
Pirated software.
Ninja'd software.
Persenal feelings.
Content on (or linking to) YouTube.com and YTMND.com

In my opinion, I'd rather see someone Watched for discussing hacking a game (watched for the first offence). Then, if they post again, they get banned.

Remember that K^2 was warned a number of times and told to stop - he chose not to.
But he was never watched y'know.

But he was never watched y'know.
He still had warnings though - Being Watched is the same as a warning.

Except being watched prevents from posting new threads, which would have prevented him from posting another thread.
And that probably would have given him a clearer message that what he was doing shouldnt really be posted on the forum than just a warning, which could have led him to spect the warning to be just because of a technicality(him posting a program), and thus posting just simple instructions instead of a program.

[QUOTE=MtlAngelus;531076]Except being watched prevents from posting new threads, which would have prevented him from posting another thread.
And that probably would have given him a clearer message that what he was doing shouldnt really be posted on the forum than just a warning, which could have led him to spect the warning to be just because of a technicality(him posting a program), and thus posting just simple instructions instead of a program.[/QUOTE
...
Gee, your excuses are worse than Akus.

I'm pretty sure that, no matter how much K^2's banning is argued, it won't change time.

Except being watched prevents from posting new threads, which would have prevented him from posting another thread.
Oh, I see how that works...

But really, "being watched" is really just that -- it's for people whose posting habits are objectionable. It wouldn't really have made much sense in K^2's case; he wasn't banned for ongoing habits, he was banned for one quite specific thing. He was told in no uncertain terms that if he didn't stop distributing their maps, they'd stop him themselves -- and instead of respecting their wishes, he simply tried to get around it. So they carried out their thread. What choice did they have? And at what point should they have tried "being watched"?

What you've done is to STEAL the game from Team17 - therefore you are a thief. Harsh, isn't it? And, thiefs are criminals, criminals who get caught get punished.

Really?

"A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".

Kelster did that?!

Oh, I see how that works...

But really, "being watched" is really just that -- it's for people whose posting habits are objectionable. It wouldn't really have made much sense in K^2's case; he wasn't banned for ongoing habits, he was banned for one quite specific thing. He was told in no uncertain terms that if he didn't stop distributing their maps, they'd stop him themselves -- and instead of respecting their wishes, he simply tried to get around it. So they carried out their thread. What choice did they have? And at what point should they have tried "being watched"?
Either after the first thread, or after the second. Really, k^2 was more helpful than he was a problem, if you want to avid to the rules by saying "he broke rule he got banned" you might aswell abid to the rule "do something unnapropiate > watched > ban" instead of "warn > ban", specially considering what he did wasn't in any way harmful, just technically not appropiate.

If I were to post something unnapropiate, odds are I would get a)watched or b)banned instantlly wouldn't I?

Really?



Kelster did that?!
I... really don't get what you're getting at, there.
Pirating is the correct term technically, but pirating is rather similar to stealing, you have to admit.

I am ashamed. :(

Well, all you have to do is buy the game and that'll go away.
I don't think that it's all that expensive anymore.

For the record, getting back to the original topic, I have been discussing with Sel and we have decided to punish the offenders accordingly, using the nice shiny new Infraction system :D

With the new infraction system, any statuses earnt by users get removed after a predetermined time period - how cool is that :D Don't have to worry about admins forgetting to remove them!!

Either after the first thread, or after the second. Really, k^2 was more helpful than he was a problem, if you want to avid to the rules by saying "he broke rule he got banned" you might aswell abid to the rule "do something unnapropiate > watched > ban" instead of "warn > ban", specially considering what he did wasn't in any way harmful, just technically not appropiate.

If I were to post something unnapropiate, odds are I would get a)watched or b)banned instantlly wouldn't I?you act like things are only black and white and there can be nothing else. being watched is for people with bad habits. K^2 had no bad posting habits, he posted a thread talking about piracy. think about it like this: if someone breaks a law, they get warned. the system is Warning > Fine > Jail. if they break a bigger law they get fined from the start, no warning. if they break an even bigger law then they go straight to jail, no warning, no fine. this is the exact same. minor problems (spam) get a warning. continued problems or larger problems (abusive spam), get a watched status. the greatest of forum crimes get a ban. now these rules may or may not be followed in order, and there's nothing saying they can't be skipped at times.

don't get me wrong, I liked K^2, he was awesome, but what he did was wrong and he knew it. he deserved what he got.

I am ashamed. :(the games are VERY cheap these days, just find someone willing to buy you a copy online or convince your parents somehow.

With the new infraction system, any statuses earnt by users get removed after a predetermined time period - how cool is that :D Don't have to worry about admins forgetting to remove them!!so will optissimus be unwatched yet? :p

you act like things are only black and white and there can be nothing else. being watched is for people with bad habits. K^2 had no bad posting habits, he posted a thread talking about piracy. think about it like this: if someone breaks a law, they get warned. the system is Warning > Fine > Jail. if they break a bigger law they get fined from the start, no warning. if they break an even bigger law then they go straight to jail, no warning, no fine. this is the exact same. minor problems (spam) get a warning. continued problems or larger problems (abusive spam), get a watched status. the greatest of forum crimes get a ban. now these rules may or may not be followed in order, and there's nothing saying they can't be skipped at times.

don't get me wrong, I liked K^2, he was awesome, but what he did was wrong and he knew it. he deserved what he got.

Being Watched is equivalent to a warning. Sometimes, people just get warnings, like K^2, sometimes they get watched. If you break the rules after being watched, you get banned, just the same as if you break them after a warning.


so will optissimus be unwatched yet? :p

Who?

And if they were watched under the old system, they need to e-mail Sel (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30183) to get their statuses sorted.

Who?it was a guy from a few years back. he was around here for a month when he got watched for reasons no one has ever figured out. he was watched for 5 or 6 months without incident and e-mailed sel or apj (don't remember who it was at the time), never getting a response. he eventually left the forums because of the being watched status and now resides on BTP occassionally. he's the most infamous case of "being watched" to date, though it's so old it's rather obscure now, I guess.

Get him to e-mail Sel on webmaster at team17 dot com and he will either modify or remove the status.

K^2 wasn't talking about pirating, or any serious hacking. He was doing nothing malicious. All he did was start writing a level editor after T17 so vehemently refused to release one themselves. I mean, all throughout the development of W3D we had been told of a level editor. But then they refused to deliver. All he was doing to doing for T17 what they had promised to do themselves. They lost no profit from K^2's actions, and might even have made more money. If there were a level editor I might even have bothered to buy W4M. (worth noting I didn't pirate it, I just never got it)

(There, this is the right thread - I accidentally posted this somewhere else for a while...:o Thus is the problem when you have a whole bunch of threads open in tabs...)

K^2 wasn't talking about pirating, or any serious hacking. He was doing nothing malicious. All he did was start writing a level editor after T17 so vehemently refused to release one themselves.

That is in no way true.

He hacked the X-Box Worms4 demo disc, stripped a load of maps out of it, converted them to W3D format, and released them on the internet. It's against forum rules and international copyright law, and almost certainly would, if left unckecked, have dented W4's sales. When Team17 pointed this out he changed to a similar course of action that was within the law but still will without the forum rules.

Holy cow he stole maps made available from a free cd... and converted them so they could be used in another T17 game... THE HORROR!

Just imagine, how many sells T17 would have lost, because we all know it's 4 maps what made W:4M better than W3D, not the bug fixes, better online, customisable teams, funny weapons and user created weapons and slightly better graphics...

Honestly, there was no significant harm.
And I'm quite sure a second warning would have stopped him, or a Being Watched, rather than a direct ban.

And I recall sometime after the first leaked W3D demo they actually allowed threads talking about hex editing it, making almost all weapons available for it...

edit: and LOL aku, piracy?

Team17 don't mind discussing of certain hacking, like weapon tweaking, as long as you don't take your hacks online - then you will be banned from online play and possibly the forum.

We've been through the reasons why K^2 was banned many times before, and nothing has changed and nothing will change. So let's just leave it there.

I think we should bring him back, have some hot coco, hold hands and have a good cry. :)

Being Watched is equivalent to a warning. Sometimes, people just get warnings, like K^2, sometimes they get watched. If you break the rules after being watched, you get banned, just the same as if you break them after a warning.

But you're generally warned before you're watched

But you're generally warned before you're watched
Not always. If you annoy the mods enough, we just watch you straight off (or in some cases, ban straight off).

Not always. If you annoy the mods enough, we just watch you straight off (or in some cases, ban straight off).
I know. Hence:
But you're generally warned before you're watched

That is in no way true.

He hacked the X-Box Worms4 demo disc, stripped a load of maps out of it, converted them to W3D format, and released them on the internet. It's against forum rules and international copyright law, and almost certainly would, if left unckecked, have dented W4's sales. When Team17 pointed this out he changed to a similar course of action that was within the law but still will without the forum rules.How on earth could that have dented W4's sales in the least? If anything, it would dent them the OTHER direction, increasing excitement about the game. I know he got me to reinstall W3D after it had been uninstalled for some time. If he'd kept up I'd probably have wanted to get W4. Increasing sales. Q.E.D.

How on earth could that have dented W4's sales in the least? If anything, it would dent them the OTHER direction, increasing excitement about the game. I know he got me to reinstall W3D after it had been uninstalled for some time. If he'd kept up I'd probably have wanted to get W4. Increasing sales. Q.E.D.

Q. E. Nihil.

There's a far clearer case to say that some people -- maybe not many, but some -- would think "Hmm. I could spend some money on the new Worms game... or I could just play all its landscapes in the version I already have... Don't think I'll bother giving any money to EB today, then".

I know W4:M has many other improvements, and you know it does. But that doesn't mean everyone else knows that.

Not always. If you annoy the mods enough, we just watch you straight off (or in some cases, ban straight off).

Note to noobs: that is NOT a challange!

Get him to e-mail Sel on webmaster at team17 dot com and he will either modify or remove the status.Can't Sel just run a query to get everyone with a "Being Watched" status and no infraction points and give them the respective points?

the games are VERY cheap these days, just find someone willing to buy you a copy online or convince your parents somehow.


How cheap is 'VERY cheap'? That might depend on where you are!
Quotes Herb Dixion: "The Canadian Dollar told me I had to rent a Neon."
Convincing my parents... that's what I had to do to get Worms 4 off ebay... cost me $40 though.
I'm already trying to convince my mom to get me a season box set of an anime off Amazon! Game will have to wait until after that and after I buy War of the Worlds.

How cheap is 'VERY cheap'? That might depend on where you are!
Quotes Herb Dixion: "The Canadian Dollar told me I had to rent a Neon."
Convincing my parents... that's what I had to do to get Worms 4 off ebay... cost me $40 though.
I'm already trying to convince my mom to get me a season box set of an anime off Amazon! Game will have to wait until after that and after I buy War of the Worlds.
I'd say about $10-$12 dollars from Team17 shop.
Although if your parents are anything like mine, then you're gonna have a very tough time; but I just don't get on well with my parents.

How cheap is 'VERY cheap'? That might depend on where you are!
Quotes Herb Dixion: "The Canadian Dollar told me I had to rent a Neon."
Convincing my parents... that's what I had to do to get Worms 4 off ebay... cost me $40 though.
I'm already trying to convince my mom to get me a season box set of an anime off Amazon! Game will have to wait until after that and after I buy War of the Worlds.
In that case you don't get to play WA until after you get War of the Worlds. Too bad.

In that case you don't get to play WA until after you get War of the Worlds. Too bad.

Shush. WAR OF THE WORLDS is an awesome movie! I mean the new one!

Once? OK. But buying the DVD? Are insane scientologists and girls that can only look horrified that popular these days? How the hell did Spielberg go from Close Encounters of the Third Kind to War of the Worlds?

But arguing about why K^2 was banned won't change time, I agree. But K^2 did know an awful lot about theoretical physics...

Q. E. Nihil.

There's a far clearer case to say that some people -- maybe not many, but some -- would think "Hmm. I could spend some money on the new Worms game... or I could just play all its landscapes in the version I already have... Don't think I'll bother giving any money to EB today, then".

I know W4:M has many other improvements, and you know it does. But that doesn't mean everyone else knows that.

I must admit, you do have a point there - there are a lot of dumb people in this world...


Now, I could understand the impact if he stood around every EB store and handed out the W4 maps to everyone who examined the game on the shelf. But I hope everyone who is into the series enough to check the developer's forum would know that. And this forum was pretty much his only effective range of distribution.

So there might be a few people who don't buy the game because of him, but then there might also be a few people who do buy the game because of him. It's really hard to say, but either way I say the impact would be minimal... *shrug*


I dunno though, people can theoretically decide not to buy the game because the demo is good enough, and just play that. I don't think the maps would cause any more harm than releasing a demo. And much like a demo increases sales, I'm inclined to think the maps would act like a demo and potentially increase sales too...

In that case you don't get to play WA until after you get War of the Worlds. Too bad.

It's not too bad at all because piracy is still an option. "Too bad" implies there's no alternative. Nice try, though.

Q. E. Nihil.

There's a far clearer case to say that some people -- maybe not many, but some -- would think "Hmm. I could spend some money on the new Worms game... or I could just play all its landscapes in the version I already have... Don't think I'll bother giving any money to EB today, then".

I know W4:M has many other improvements, and you know it does. But that doesn't mean everyone else knows that.

a) The maps were translated to W:3d withouth the Height map base, so they would appear incomplete, and also with weird textures.
b) Most people stupid enough to think maps are all the difference, are also stupid enough to not bother following instructions to convert a map. Or to even download the converter and use it.
c) It wouldn't dent the sales as much as StarForce did. Unrelated argument, I know.


Also, thomasp, I'm not talking about weapon tweaks, I'm talking about the fact they allowed threads that told you got to get almost ALL weapons from W3d full game in the LEAKED german demo. That has way lot more potential to denting the game's sales...

If your userid is 3 or less figures, you're an old forumer in my books :p

I like that logic. I only post, at best, once in a while.

The problem with issues like this is where to draw the line...
You buy the CD legally
You then make an image of the CD on to your computer to prevent damage to the CD which you have paid for (same logic goes for copying the CD and using the copy)
A year or so down the line and your original CD somehow gets damaged beyond use. Now you only have the copied version...

Most people would accept that as ok... now what if you lose that copied version before making a second backup. Is it then so wrong to aquire another copy from somewhere else without buying it...

Just for the record, i've bought 3 different CD's for WA due to unforseen "accidents" (one of which may have something to do with a few coffee rings and other stains)

PS: what the hell are you doing on at 5:12am James?

PS: what the hell are you doing on at 5:12am James?

I had to get up for work :(

What a rubbish shift it was, too.

How cheap is 'VERY cheap'? That might depend on where you are!
Quotes Herb Dixion: "The Canadian Dollar told me I had to rent a Neon."
Convincing my parents... that's what I had to do to get Worms 4 off ebay... cost me $40 though.
I'm already trying to convince my mom to get me a season box set of an anime off Amazon! Game will have to wait until after that and after I buy War of the Worlds. all the 2D worms games are $5 at stores in the US, and about $10 online. with shipping I paid something like $13 for my WWP (had to buy it a second time cause I lost the original disc).

Once? OK. But buying the DVD? Are insane scientologists and girls that can only look horrified that popular these days? How the hell did Spielberg go from Close Encounters of the Third Kind to War of the Worlds? I'd like an explanation as to what made war of the worlds that bad? I watched that movie and it ranked up among some of the best movies I've ever seen...if you want to talk about a colossal screw up, refer to the robot movie he made a few years ago that was so crap I forgot the name of it :p

I like that logic. I only post, at best, once in a while.

The problem with issues like this is where to draw the line...
You buy the CD legally
You then make an image of the CD on to your computer to prevent damage to the CD which you have paid for (same logic goes for copying the CD and using the copy)
A year or so down the line and your original CD somehow gets damaged beyond use. Now you only have the copied version...

Most people would accept that as ok... now what if you lose that copied version before making a second backup. Is it then so wrong to aquire another copy from somewhere else without buying it...

Just for the record, i've bought 3 different CD's for WA due to unforseen "accidents" (one of which may have something to do with a few coffee rings and other stains)

PS: what the hell are you doing on at 5:12am James?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that, having also bought more than one copy of worms games before. That doesn't make my view right however...

While we're all admitting stuff, I might as well say this: I'm probably the only person that has a ROM of a game I paid for. :eek:

It's not too bad at all because piracy is still an option. "Too bad" implies there's no alternative. Nice try, though.

I don't believe it's so impossible to buy it legally. If you can't pay for something, you don't get it. It's the way the world works. Just because software can be pirated, doesn't mean it should. You're basically saying that because someone doesn't have a shop in their town that sells a 64" TV, it's okay to go steal one. Much larger scale, but same basic principle

While we're all admitting stuff, I might as well say this: I'm probably the only person that has a ROM of a game I paid for. :eek:

Wrong. I got Rayman 2 for N64 ages ago, lost it somewhere, and downloaded a ROM of it

You're basically saying that because someone doesn't have a shop in their town that sells a 64" TV, it's okay to go steal one. Much larger scale, but same basic principle

Yes, but only in the case where 64" TVs can be perfectly cloned at zero cost.

Also your analogy would be more appropriate if said TV was actually a really old black and white one that is virtually impossible to find on the market.

Also your analogy would be more appropriate if said TV was actually a really old black and white one that is virtually impossible to find on the market.

I would be more willing to agree if it wasn't clear that Kelster could get hold of the game. However she has made it clear that she can, and does buy things over the Internet. Team17 will ship it too her - damn well buy the game.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that, having also bought more than one copy of worms games before. That doesn't make my view right however...

Which is basically underlining the main aspect of this type of problem. Moral values and different people's perspective of right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable.

Moral and Legal issues rarely work out together.

The problem with issues like this is where to draw the line...
You buy the CD legally
You then make an image of the CD on to your computer to prevent damage to the CD which you have paid for (same logic goes for copying the CD and using the copy)
A year or so down the line and your original CD somehow gets damaged beyond use. Now you only have the copied version...

Most people would accept that as ok...
Myself, I would not actually consider this ok.
But it does raise a good question: should we be allowed to continue to tell people that have the CD how to create a pirate version?

While we're all admitting stuff, I might as well say this: I'm probably the only person that has a ROM of a game I paid for.
Nope! The only ROM I have on my computer is Micro Machines Military, even though my MMM and Sega Mega Drive are both fully functional. (and connected to TV)
All I'd have to do is turn on TV, press 6 on remote, insert cartridge, and press the power button.

Yes, but only in the case where 64" TVs can be perfectly cloned at zero cost.

Also your analogy would be more appropriate if said TV was actually a really old black and white one that is virtually impossible to find on the market.The analogy would be even more appropriate if said TV was infact a copy of Worms Armageddon, worth around £5. It wouldn't be a good idea to steal it.

The analogy would be even more appropriate if said TV was infact a copy of Worms Armageddon, worth around £5. It wouldn't be a good idea to steal it.
Price shouldn't be considered a factor, unless it's normally lower than $0.01

Price shouldn't be considered a factor, unless it's normally lower than $0.01:confused:

If price isn't a factor are you saying that stealing a Freddo is just as bad as stealing a Ferrari?

:confused:

If price isn't a factor are you saying that stealing a Freddo is just as bad as stealing a Ferrari?
Well, ya. As long as they can both be perfectly cloned at zero cost.

:confused:

If price isn't a factor are you saying that stealing a Freddo is just as bad as stealing a Ferrari?

The trouble with the "it's onlt a Freddo, what's the big deal" argument is that it means somewhere you have to drw a line between small theft and big theft. So where is it?

Depends who you're theiving from, too. A freddo from a starving child is a little worse than a ferrari from bill gates

Depends who you're theiving from, too. A freddo from a starving child is a little worse than a ferrari from bill gates
As I said:
"Well, ya. As long as they can both be perfectly cloned at zero cost."
Otherwise, it can't be compared to pirating.

Yes, i was just saying

Regardless, pirating is illegal. Saying that you have a pirated game or how to get one is against the forum rules. Moral issues don't mix with legal issues.

To be fair the forum rules aren't a legal issue, but that's nit-pickery. I see your point.

Unfortunately, this place isn't freedom of speech - Team17 get to decide what you all say here! And, if they don't want you talking about pirating games, then you can't talk about that.

If your userid is 3 or less figures, you're an old forumer in my books

Eh, I'd say 4 (And yes, this is because my User ID is 1204...)

Eh, I'd say 4 (And yes, this is because my User ID is 1204...)

I would say 2, but that because my User ID is 53...

the robot movie he made a few years ago that was so crap I forgot the name of it.

A.I.
While we're all admitting stuff, I might as well say this: I'm probably the only person that has a ROM of a game I paid for. :eek:

I have vectorman and dynamite headdy ROMs, and I have those games right behind me now.
Of course, that's somewhat offset by the number of ROMs I SHOULDN'T have, but then where would all of my highly amusing avatars come from?
And besides, I'll probably buy some of the good ones when I have the Wii.

In fairness, I only got the ROM of AW2 just so I could record the music on my PC. :p

I find it a terrible injustice that people get off with a "watched" status when they illegally obtain a game, while K^2 gets banned for just trying to help the community.

I think they deserve worse than what K^2 got. If Kelster doesn't deserve to be banned, K^2 sure as hell doesn't deserve it either. If you think K^2 should be banned, Kelster should be banned too.

You see, the difference here, is that T17 don't hold a grudge on Kelster as they did with K^2 :rolleyes:
[ cue me getting watched or something :) ]

As we have said many, many, many, many, many times before, Being Watched is a warning. K^2 got a warning, albeit a different kind. If you continue to break the rules after a warning, you get banned.

If Kelster posts about a hacked/cracked/etc worms game again, it'll be bans-ville for her. With the infraction system, it is a lot easier to keep track on people and what they have done before.


I think we should all stop commenting on the K^2 incident, because nobody here, apart from T17 staff (and of course K^2, who isn't here) is in possession of all the facts. If you ask K^2, he will give you his side of the story, which won't match up with Team17's side.

K^2's banning has been talked about many times before, and its always the same answer - he broke the rules, he got warned, he broke the rules again, he got banned, he's not getting unbanned. So, let's not mention any more about it.

OK?

im just glad that both the forum admin and the people who manage wormnet havnt banned me considering i don't own the game.... i got a cd image from the internet due to a) no one in my family will pay money online and b) no one sells W:A but they do sell W2 and WWP which i incidently actually paid for and have the original discs to prove it..

Hmm, that's annoying about your parents...you should try to show them that Team17 are a reputable awesome company..

my parents don't care how reputable they are... they just will not spend money over the internet.

my parents don't care how reputable they are... they just will not spend money over the internet.well, it's reasonably sensible considering the crap the news shows about online shopping and ID theft, but in reality shopping online is perfectly safe if you know at all what you're doing...

It's probably more safe than shopping in real shops actually, considering some of the scams that have happened in my town with chip and pin recently. Over a million quid these people managed to steal by putting cameras and stuff in a few petrol stations!

my parents don't care how reputable they are... they just will not spend money over the internet.

Er... Why?

There is no sane reason why.

It's probably more safe than shopping in real shops actually, considering some of the scams that have happened in my town with chip and pin recently. Over a million quid these people managed to steal by putting cameras and stuff in a few petrol stations!hmm...good point. the chances of having your ID stolen are far less than than the chances of being mugged or robbed or scammed etc.

we prefer seeing the person that receives the money.... we do not like sending money to some far away place to possibly never be seen again... and not be able to trace where it actually went...

we prefer seeing the person that receives the money.... we do not like sending money to some far away place to possibly never be seen again... and not be able to trace where it actually went.

Whereas at a shop, you hand the money over, it is never seen by you again and you can't trace where it goes.

So long as you buy from a reputable seller there is no need to worry. No more than if you hand your credit card over ANYWHERE. Anyway that you do so can easily just take your card number etc off your card, right?

we prefer seeing the person that receives the money.... we do not like sending money to some far away place to possibly never be seen again... and not be able to trace where it actually went.

BK is right. You never see the money you hand over in a shop again. Nor can it be traced.

ah but you have a docket and you can go to the place and complain to them and return the product if faulty directly etc. generally resulting in a replacement on the spot.... and several places like Electronics Boutique allow you to return the game for a refund in first 7 days.... and if you pay in cash then there is no worry but with a credit card you could end up in big debt if you do fall for a scam.

ah but you have a docket and you can go to the place and complain to them and return the product if faulty directly etc. generally resulting in a replacement on the spot.... and several places like Electronics Boutique allow you to return the game for a refund in first 7 days.... and if you pay in cash then there is no worry but with a credit card you could end up in big debt if you do fall for a scam.

1. Yes, an exchange is more or less instant. However you do have to go to the shop (which for me results in a 40 minute drive or catching the bus early in the morning).

2. Use really large, well known online dealers. www.amazon.com is a good one. The Team17 shop is secure. eBay is secure. You only fall for a scam if you do something stupid.

ah but you have a docket and you can go to the place and complain to them and return the product if faulty directly etc. generally resulting in a replacement on the spot.... and several places like Electronics Boutique allow you to return the game for a refund in first 7 days.... and if you pay in cash then there is no worry but with a credit card you could end up in big debt if you do fall for a scam.
Online, it would be the sellers responsibility of something went wrong. For a professional company like Team17, it would be easy to take action if money was stolen.
And you could still return the game if it was faulty if you bought online.

Team17 lose precious beer money
That's a real crime! But they can have a beer at my place.

potential money.
Thahahahaahhaahahahaha.

bah, i thought i posted....

no matter how much you people try to deprogram us we will more then likely not spend money over the internet.

yes i know what i have done is wrong in pretty much every single way and that i should be banned, if i am to be banned and no one has got around to doing it just yet tell me so i can stop talking.

i am banned from lionhead studios for posting cracks on there forums due to how black and white 1 has one of the most buggiest copy protections for winXP and i am ****ed because they have not given me a reason for it... tho the reason why is obvious.

You are free to go look for cracks, trainers, backup cds and whatever workarounds you want, but that doesn't mean you can just go post about it on the company's official forums. No matter how much of a honest reason you have, those are more private matters and should be taken as such with the company and/or anyone else that can help out. Posting them on a public forum goes against forum rules and also opens up said cracks to anyone who wants to use them for illegal purposes.

Summing up: no matter how much of an issue you have, rules are rules, and you must abide by them. Either find a forum with different rules that can help you out, or take it somewhere else, there's far more contact methods than a forum.

i think i got banned for more or less proving that the copy protection on that particular game sucks under winXP.

i think i got banned for more or less proving that the copy protection on that particular game sucks under winXP.yeah, that sounds about right. companies, for SOME reason, don't tend to like it when people get around their security measures and then explain to everyone else that it's possible and how to do it....I can't imagine why....

what you said looks like you misinterpreted what i said.

i am banned from lionhead studios for posting cracks on there forums

yeah, that sounds about right. companies, for SOME reason, don't tend to like it when people get around their security measures and then explain to everyone else that it's possible and how to do it....I can't imagine why....

what you said looks like you misinterpreted what i said.

Looks like you misinterpreted what you wrote.

bah, i thought i posted....

no matter how much you people try to deprogram us we will more then likely not spend money over the internet.
Regardless, it looks like you should have a warning from the mods right about now.

i am banned from lionhead studios for posting cracks on there forums due to how black and white 1 has one of the most buggiest copy protections for winXP and i am ****ed because they have not given me a reason for it... tho the reason why is obvious.
They did:
"No CD cracks are not something we discuss here - no matter how old the game is. franpa = banned for posting no cd links all over the place." -fluKe
And yes, you did post a lot about pirating that game. You even filled up half a topic with it.

Regardless, it looks like you should have a warning from the mods right about now.

As we have said many, many, many, many, many times before, Being Watched is a warning. K^2 got a warning, albeit a different kind. If you continue to break the rules after a warning, you get banned.

If Kelster posts about a hacked/cracked/etc worms game again, it'll be bans-ville for her. With the infraction system, it is a lot easier to keep track on people and what they have done before.

I think we should all stop commenting on the K^2 incident, because nobody here, apart from T17 staff (and of course K^2, who isn't here) is in possession of all the facts. If you ask K^2, he will give you his side of the story, which won't match up with Team17's side.

K^2's banning has been talked about many times before, and its always the same answer - he broke the rules, he got warned, he broke the rules again, he got banned, he's not getting unbanned. So, let's not mention any more about it.

OK? that was part of this thread and applied to everyone here. that right there would be kelster's warning had she not already been watched, and it is also the warning for others who are posting here.

Just think of it this way:
Piracy,cracks, whatever... is evil. EVIL.
Oh and about internet buying: It's perfectly OK... I bought Worms 4 off ebay, and it was still sealed and everything. And on Amazon, I do believe they have some sort of policy on if what you get doesn't come the way it was described.
Sure... I get thoughts about it after I buy it, like if it's going to be OK or not... but the Worms 4 I recieved came perfect. ^^ Just try to buy from someone who has a positive feedback rate of over 90%, and you should be OK.

percentages mean nothing kelster...

Amazon.com is supposed to guarantee your purchase if you buy something through amazon marketplace (you have to make the payments through them, not the person selling the product), but I've never had to put that to test; even if you do get your money or an item in the end, you may have to go through some trouble to get it. I could definitely understand why you'd avoid this.

But certainly buying directly from amazon is reliable.

that was part of this thread and applied to everyone here. that right there would be kelster's warning had she not already been watched, and it is also the warning for others who are posting here.
I mwant more of a specific warning...
Regardless, the mods should be doing something.

Funny how Romania is blocked from both Amazon AND Play.com, yet I imported Ouendan off Play Asia quite easily. So really, the only thing I can order legally right now are asian games and japanophile items. There's Ebay too, but I don't really trust it.
...nice.

percentages mean nothing kelster...

They're a fairly good indication. An indication is better than nothing.

Surely it's better to be safe than sorry? And if you don't like buying online, what's the issue? Some people don't like paying with credit cards, some people don't like carrying around any large amounts of cash. It's all personal preference, there's no right or wrong way.

Surely it's better to be safe than sorry? And if you don't like buying online, what's the issue? Some people don't like paying with credit cards, some people don't like carrying around any large amounts of cash. It's all personal preference, there's no right or wrong way.
Actually, the sorry in this case would be to end up with a ban from the forums, so it's a case of 'safe but sorry' or 'not so safe but not sorry'.

if they want i will happily link them to where i got the image from... but there is a catch.... and that is i will "gladly" do this if i am not banned from team17's services as i am an honest customer after all. (yes i am a customer i have brought both Worms Worl Party and Worms 2 and would by w:a but it is only availible to me via credit card and the internet.)

Well, you see, posting a link to a hacked game on the forum is strictly against forum rules, and you would be banned for it.

Of course, you can PM the link to Sel and ask Team17 Legal department to get the site removed - that's perfectly fine.

Actually, the sorry in this case would be to end up with a ban from the forums, so it's a case of 'safe but sorry' or 'not so safe but not sorry'.
I was refering to buying online in general, meaning it's better not to shop online and put yourself at risk of fraud than to buy over the internet and run the risk. I didn't mention buying illegal copies at all.

Can someone fix the typo in the thread title? It's injuring me.

Can someone fix the typo in the thread title? It's injuring me.Technically it's not a typo, it's a misspelling.

i did not mention posting such a link on these forums as i am aware how stupid that is with my past experience on lionheadstudios forum.

Technically it's not a typo, it's a misspelling.

You don't know that!

It is a misspelling, not a typo. I didn't know how to spell involving, but I've had to use that word an awful lot, recently, so I learnt.

EDIT: Now that's a typo!

You don't know that!

Looking at the placement of "I" and "E" on the qwerty layout, I would say that it is a mis-spelling. Admit you were wrong James, that's what we all want to hear

Are cracks legal if you own the game? You know, for the sake of not having to put in the CD.

no, also makes you void to any support due to its nature and most companies licence agreement.

Actually yes, they are legal if you legally own the game (that's why websites like GCW are legal), but yes you void the support, use them at your own risk, can't discuss it in official forums, etc.

I'm not sure if that's been established. Wouldn't it be against the DMCA (bypassing a copyright protection)?

thats why i said no...

I'm not sure if that's been established. Isn't copying to your own computer for backup and faster load time covered by fair use?

thats the U.S. (dunno where else it applies but in the U.S. it is legal to have 1 backup copy)

Uh huh. The DMCA is also in the US.

2: There were countless posts made by people like Bonz that told people how to create a no-cd game if you have a cd.
But it does raise a good question: should we be allowed to continue to tell people that have the CD how to create a pirate version?
Reading through the whole thread I have to point out that I never talked about how to no-cd crack a game.
I only told people that you can use Daemon tools too mount an image of your CD.
Nothing illegal there according to Austrian right, as there is no manipulation of the copy protection.

And FYI, I own legal copies of W2, W:A, WWP, Blast and W4M. Bought them as budget re-releases, second-hand and reduced in price.
I found them all in my home town.

Reading through the whole thread I have to point out that I never talked about how to no-cd crack a game.
I only told people that you can use Daemon tools too mount an image of your CD.
Nothing illegal there according to Austrian right, as there is no manipulation of the copy protection.

And FYI, I own legal copies of W2, W:A, WWP, Blast and W4M. Bought them as budget re-releases, second-hand and reduced in price.
I found them all in my home town.
there is a problem if your reader can not read the disc 100% accurately.... as you will rely on cd-protection emulation to work it.

there is a problem if your reader can not read the disc 100% accurately.... as you will rely on cd-protection emulation to work it.

That's a hardware fault.

Get a new drive.

Reading through the whole thread I have to point out that I never talked about how to no-cd crack a game.
I only told people that you can use Daemon tools too mount an image of your CD.
Yes, but that doesn't require the CD to be yours, and the image can also be easily transferred.

Yes, but that doesn't require the CD to be yours, and the image can also be easily transferred.

It is legal to make a copy of a CD or to mount a CD Image onto your HDD as long as you bought it. It is illegal to distribute copies or cracks.

Yes, but that doesn't require the CD to be yours, and the image can also be easily transferred.
Yes, I am naive enough to believe that everyone owns a legit copy.

I see it as more a matter of whether you're cynical enough to believe that most of them don't.

Surely it's better to be safe than sorry?
Yes. As a result you should only buy from reputable sellers.
Some people don't like paying with credit cards.
That's because credit is debt. Debt acrues interest. Things cost more than they would if you paid with cash or debit card.
Some people don't like carrying around any large amounts of cash.
That's because there's a risk of someone mugging you. Nobody can beat you up and steal your wallet on the Internet, least of all reputable sellers.

It's all personal preference, there's no right or wrong way.
True, but when one of the ways involves theft, it could be argued that using a pirate game is thw wrong way and buying the game is the right way.

It is legal to make a copy of a CD or to mount a CD Image onto your HDD as long as you bought it. It is illegal to distribute copies or cracks.Well if it's legal to make a backup copy of a legally acquired game, then it should be legal to get a crack to enable you to make and use a backup copy of a legally acquired game.

Well if it's legal to make a backup copy of a legally acquired game, then it should be legal to get a crack to enable you to make and use a backup copy of a legally acquired game.

Er... Yes.

Yep, similar with marijuana in Austria.
The comsumation is not prohibited, but the possesion, acquisition, passing on, etc. is.
A flying by bird would have to drop it into your mouth... :)

That's because credit is debt. Debt acrues interest. Things cost more than they would if you paid with cash or debit card.Not necesseraly, if you get a decend credit card which you pay back each month, things can theoretically cost less. The money that would've been taken out straight away has had a month left in your account to gather interest.

Well if it's legal to make a backup copy of a legally acquired game, then it should be legal to get a crack to enable you to make and use a backup copy of a legally acquired game.Depends wether or not it's legal to alter the executable though, CD images don't actually alter anything, but a no-cd crack generally replaces the executable.

Why would someone with a backup of their disc need a no-cd crack?

Also, the interest you gain over the course of a month is stupidly small and does not warrant getting a credit card. What warrants a credit card is wanting to pay for things with money you don't have, surely? If you have the money to spend, why would you use a credit card?

Personally, I don't use credit cards because I believe in buying what you can afford. I don't like to borrow, and credit is borrowing++.

Edit:
Why would someone with a backup of their disc need a no-cd crack?
I just thought about this a bit more and I can see that if you had a backup CD but didn't have the HDD space to keep it on the HDD and you installed it before your CD drive broke then you'd want to use a no-cd crack to play.

I think so long as you paid for the .exe and didn't distribute it, you wouldn't be breaking any laws by altering it. You might void your warranty, though. ;)

Also, the interest you gain over the course of a month is stupidly small and does not warrant getting a credit card. What warrants a credit card is wanting to pay for things with money you don't have, surely? If you have the money to spend, why would you use a credit card?
So that you can buy things online?
So that you don't have to carry a wad of cash around with you all the time?
So that if your 'money' gets stolen, you can cancel your 'money'.
So that you can go around to loads of people and say "Omigod look i hav a crditcrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

But you can do all of those things except the last one with a debit card.

Some websites don't take debit. This is a problem I often encounter, but I can use my credit card instead.

That's a shame. I've never had problems with my debit card other than when I use it in real life and the stupid machine doesn't swipe it properly. That's not happened to me online before.

If your debit card gets stolen / frauded, you're (more) screwed. If it's a credit card it's much less of a problem (chip and pin scam in some petrol stations near me comes to mind). Plus some of them have got more insurance on internet usage and the like.

You'd be a complete and utter moron to use them to spend money you haven't got, but if you've got the money there are a few advantages to using a credit card over a debit card.

It would seem there a vast quantity of morons, then. It happens we have more debt than anywhere else in Europe. I don't mean parliamentary debt, either - I mean people being in debt.

Very few people use their credit card to spend money they have. Whether that's stupid of them or not, it is a clear indication that having a credit card is very likely to land you in debt.

Besides which, your point that credit cards are safer is true. They're also just as safe on the Internet as they are in a shop, so long as you use a reputable seller.

But debit cards you have a pin number... I went to Whistler last May with the band, and instead of carrying around 200 dollars in cash, I had 40 dollars in cash and 160 on my card... Smarter idea then to carry around all those bills? Then imagine your change...

Some websites don't take debit. This is a problem I often encounter, but I can use my credit card instead.

If your debit card gets stolen / frauded, you're (more) screwed.

Not true, and not true.

I have a debit card that works the same way a credit card does, except that charges are paid from my checking account rather than being billed to me. As far as any website I use is concerned, it's credit.

You'll have all the security benefits that any Visa card offers - for purchases made from your checking account. You're not responsible for verified unauthorized purchases should your card be lost or stolen. You also have Visa protection in case of a merchant dispute or fraud.

Oh, and I have a PIN number.

solution to the credit/debit card thing.....get both in one! banks here offer that and it's proven to me to be extremely convenient.

what's in your wallet?

solution to the credit/debit card thing.....get both in one! banks here offer that and it's proven to me to be extremely convenient.

what's in your wallet?

I thought it was "What's in your pocket?"
*shudders* That commercial is seriously wrong...

Depends wether or not it's legal to alter the executable though, CD images don't actually alter anything, but a no-cd crack generally replaces the executable.I didn't specify getting a no-cd crack, although if there's no way to make the game recognize a backup cd, you'd need one. If the cd is copy-protected, you'd need a crack to be able to make a backup of it. Or if the game needed the cd and didn't recognize backup cds, you'd need a crack for that. Etc.

In my eyes, if you paid for the game you should be able to do what you like with it so long as it doesn't alter/harm other users' experiences.

If you are playing the game but never paid for it then you are in the wrong.

I don't care about where "laws" come into this since they differ from place to place. Morally speaking, I can't see the harm in using a no-cd crack if you've paid for the game.

Uh huh. The DMCA is also in the US.

Devil May Cry Agency? Sh!t thoose guy's don't fool around.

Not true, and not true.Why's it not true? If you debit card details get stolen, your card is cut off and you can't use it... leaving you with limited ways to pay for things, plus significant amounts of money can be stolen in the meantime, which can take months to be gotten back. If a CC's details get nicked then you can simply get it locked as stolen and use another card, since the stolen money wasn't taken out of your account, getting it cleared up doesn't leave you with no money for however long.

If the cd is copy-protected, you'd need a crack to be able to make a backup of it. Or if the game needed the cd and didn't recognize backup cds, you'd need a crack for that. Etc.I can't think of many games which fit that bill though. Not new ones at any rate.

True, but when one of the ways involves theft, it could be argued that using a pirate game is the wrong way and buying the game is the right way.
As I've already said, I wasn't refering to pirate games in any way. My post was purely about buying online - just because you can't or won't get the game online doesn't mean you automatically have to steal it.

No, you're right about that.

My post wasn't intended to infer that but if you are to obtain the game, it will either have to be bought or stolen. Even if it is a gift, it will have been either bought or stolen somewhere down the line.

Unless, of course, you made it yourself. ;)

Unless, of course, you made it yourself. ;)which, in this case, would actually also be considered stealing :p

If you debit card details get stolen, your card is cut off and you can't use it... leaving you with limited ways to pay for things, plus significant amounts of money can be stolen in the meantime, which can take months to be gotten back. If a CC's details get nicked then you can simply get it locked as stolen and use another card, since the stolen money wasn't taken out of your account, getting it cleared up doesn't leave you with no money for however long.

I'm confused. If the card is cut off and I can't use it, doesn't that also prevent money from leaving my account? If a credit card is stolen, doesn't it get similarly cut off, such that the only way to prepare is to have multiple cards stored in different places so they don't get stolen at once, something I think is insanely paranoid?

There's a window of time between credit card purchases made with debit cards and when the money is actually deducted from the account (though it does become unavailable because the action is "pending"). In the worst case if it is removed from your account (something I still think is unlikely in the event of a stolen card), the amount stolen is limited by the amount linked to the card, in my case usually around $300. It's not a major inconvenience to me if it takes a while to get that money back.

which, in this case, would actually also be considered stealing :p

So if I make a breakout game and give someone a copy, it's considered stealing from myself?

So if I make a breakout game and give someone a copy, it's considered stealing from myself?I meant that if he completely remade a game that is the exact same in every conceivable way, then it would be considered stealing, since he didn't pay for the aquisition (or however that's spelled) of the game in question.

what if he/she never aquired the game? they just watched others play and coded the game from scratch? (it is not stealing but there is no proof of that)

and yea there are games out there that use a protection scheme that is based on the physical structure of the original disc... thus copying it won't work. (i am unsure if such a game exists to the public yet tho)

what if he/she never aquired the game? they just watched others play and coded the game from scratch? (it is not stealing but there is no proof of that)recreating an exact replica of someone else's work is against copyrighting. I'm not entirely sure on the logic behind it, but if you make an exact replica of someone else's work and don't pay for it, you're stealing.

what if he/she never aquired the game? they just watched others play and coded the game from scratch? (it is not stealing but there is no proof of that)

Zelda Classic is like that (though the original game may have been obtained legally). I remember reading that they apparently weren't sued because Nintendo didn't notice them in time, but I can't find that now.

Edit: Before I make a fool of myself (well it's a little late for that but) I don't understand the security behind debit cards. I don't understand the security behind credit cards either. What I said earlier was the result of me quickly looking things up in a poor attempt to compensate for my ignorance. My understanding is that when used as a credit card, the debit card works the same as a normal credit card except that the money comes out of my account rather than being billed to me. This leaves the normal options credit card holders have open to me, including any options for disputing charges, however the hell that works.

I can't think of many games which fit that bill though. Not new ones at any rate.I know a fair share (although I don't know your definition of "new"). Say, BF2, doesn't recognize backup CDs. Also, if there are such cracks, it's because they're needed. Otherwise, why bother?

I have a connect card. Don't have a bloody clue what it is but it works. It's a visa debit card. I'm not sure if it's a credit card too - I had always assumed visa was a credit card. I've had no problems with using it online.

There's a window of time between credit card purchases made with debit cards and when the money is actually deducted from the account (though it does become unavailable because the action is "pending"). In the worst case if it is removed from your account (something I still think is unlikely in the event of a stolen card), the amount stolen is limited by the amount linked to the card, in my case usually around $300. It's not a major inconvenience to me if it takes a while to get that money back.

Alright, replace 'stolen' with 'copied'. A few months ago there was a scam in several of the petrol stations near me. They had a camera up to steal the pin number and some sort of system where the copied the chip of the cards. We used our credit card, and when large transactions were made in germany they were blocked. However, I do know several people who had used their debit cards, and the transactions on the copied cards hadn't been blocked, which resulted in them losing quite a lot of money, hundreds or thousands in some cases. They did get the money back ... eventually. Some debit card transactions would presumably have been blocked too, but if they do get through, they're much more of a problem on a debit than a credit surely?

I know a fair share (although I don't know your definition of "new"). Say, BF2, doesn't recognize backup CDs. Also, if there are such cracks, it's because they're needed. Otherwise, why bother?I still don't quite get you, what do you mean by 'backup' cds? If you create a perfect image they'll work copy protection or not (excluding starforce). Normally if you crack the game it doesn't need the CD at all. What I thought you meant was you'd need a crack to get the game to recognise a non-exact copy of the CD which is required in order to play, and I can't think of any newish games which require the CD for anything other than verification.

I meant that if he completely remade a game that is the exact same in every conceivable way, then it would be considered stealing, since he didn't pay for the aquisition (or however that's spelled) of the game in question.

Acording to copyright law, the production of a game that is exact in every way is ONLY a breach of copyright law if you can prove that they have had access to the original.
If someone, some how, made a complete replica of their own accord without ever having seen the original then its not a breach of copyright...

Acording to copyright law, the production of a game that is exact in every way is ONLY a breach of copyright law if you can prove that they have had access to the original.
If someone, some how, made a complete replica of their own accord without ever having seen the original then its not a breach of copyright...oh? never heard of that part of the law. interesting....

carry on then

Here's an example:

#include <stdio.h>
int main() { printf("Hello World!\n"); }


I can be fairly certain someone else has written that before. But I haven't seen it so I'm not in violation of their copyright.

I can't imagine this happening though for anything nontrivial enough to actually be copyrighted.

It basically comes down to the difference between plagorising someone else's work and the fact that code only allows so much and so to make something similar it will need to use much of the same code.

I don't think it's easy to prove plagorism but it's pretty obvious when it happens.

Well, if I can't find the game or buy it online because I don't have a credit card and my parents wont purchase it for me. I don't even bother. I don't want to sound mean, but It's not even worth all the fuss to just get a worms game.